daddystabz
Explorer
I'd love to see your house rule fixes for Palladium, Dragonblade. I may adapt all or some of them myself. I like what you described thus far.
Palladium system question
- Thread starter daddystabz
- Start date
It's about one and a half times crunchier than AD&D in my opinion. This is due to magic, a much more developed psionics system, technology, skills, and o.c.c.s/r.c.c.s out the wazoo. Can you give us some reference points of "really crunchy/complicated" and "not crunchy/complicated at all" based on other games you've played?
Haven't played the new one; mecha combat generally takes a while. If you're familiar with battletech, that's how it felt to myself, and those I played with.
p.s. take boxing
Dragonblade
Adventurer
My Palladium House Rules patch v2.5
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Number of Attacks:
Every character gets a base of 2 Hand-to-Hand Attacks per round PLUS whatever they get from HTH Martial Arts or Expert or whatever (including any of the myriad martial arts in N&S or Mystic China). So a level one character with HTH martial arts would get 4 attacks (+1 if they took Boxing). An attack does not necessarily mean you have to actually attack. Any significant action in combat could be used as an "attack". GM discretion. Minor actions are generally free, and you can also generally move up to your speed in addition to attacking. Combat should be fluid, freeform, cinematic and fun. A single attack action on your turn in initiative order could simply be: "I punch my enemy" all the way to, "My character leaps across the table, and fires his pistol at the guy by the door."
General combat:
Combat flow is the same. Roll initiative. Combatants take turns in descending initiative order. Roll to Strike when you attack. If you are being attacked then you can roll to Parry or Dodge. Move to the next combatant until everyone has used up all their attacks. Roll initiative again. Repeat.
The Palladium combat system offers a wide variety of different combat moves which can apply different modifiers to your strikes, dodges, and parries. The Ninjas and Superspies RPG probably has the most exhaustive list.
Some special combat moves take up more than one attack. Thats fine, simply subtract the cost of the move from the number of attacks you have remaining in your attack "pool" so to speak. Most magic spells or special powers or whatever usually cost 1 attack.
You can delay and act later in the initiative order, but if you wait until your turn comes back around your action is lost. Don't forget that unlike in d20, everyone rerolls initiative once all combatants have used up all their attacks. A single combat round is approximately 15 seconds and starts when initiative is rolled, and ends when everyone is out of attacks. If combat is continuing then you would reroll initiative for the second round of combat.
Dodging:
Dodging costs 1 attack unless you have Auto-Dodge, but you don't lose your turn. Example, I have 4 attacks. I have highest init, so I go first. I attack and the defender dodges or parries. I have 3 attacks left. My foe attacks me. I dodge and now have 2 attacks left. My turn again, I attack and now have 1 attack left. And so on.
You CAN dodge even if you are out of attacks but dodging will cost you attacks if you have them. If you have Auto-Dodge then you do not lose an attack when you dodge.
If you are surrounded by numerous foes or fighting a particularly tough one it is conceivable that you might choose to spend most of your actions dodging and not attack back. In this case, winning initiative in a subsequent round becomes important so that you can go first and attack. Or you can choose to not dodge one of the attacks and save an attack action for striking.
If multiple enemies attack you before your next turn in initiative order comes up again, you can opt to apply the results of one dodge roll against all attacks until your turn in initiative comes up again, or you can spend an attack to roll your dodge again. Once your turn in initiative comes up, your dodge ends regardless of whether you choose to attack or not.
Dodge rules generally apply to parries as well, but most HTH styles make parry an auto-action meaning you can roll unlimited parries and it never costs an attack. Generally speaking, you can only parry melee attacks unless otherwised allowed per the description of a power or special ability. All attacks can be dodged.
Bursts:
You can fire several different kind of bursts. They do varying degrees of damage depending on how long you hold the trigger down and how many rounds you use up. Any weapon that says it has "Standard rate of fire" or can fire bursts in its description can fire bursts. Any weapon that specifically says it cannot fire bursts or can only fire single shots or can only fire pre-set pulses/ bursts CANNOT fire bursts. For example, some rail guns only fire pre-set bursts. Those weapons follow the rules in their description and cannot be used to fire freeform variable bursts as written below. When in doubt, GM decides. All bursts cost 1 attack to use. Its simply a matter of how many rounds you want to fire. If you have a vehicle, a power back, or are playing a Bot or a Borg, you can link an energy weapon such as laser or plasma weapons to your power system and can basically fire long-bursts all day long without worrying about ammo. Obviously this doesn't apply to weapons that fire solid projectiles like regular guns, rail guns, etc.
Mini- burst: uses up 1d4+1 rounds and does x2 damage
Short-burst: uses up 1d6+4 rounds and does x3 damage
Medium burst: uses up 1d8 +6 rounds and does x4 damage
Long-burst: uses up 1d10+8 rounds and does x5 damage
Sprays:
A burst capable weapon can spray any number of adjacent targets (within reason, GM's should rule out ridiculous abuses). Roll to strike normally and each defender can choose to roll a dodge vs. that one strike roll. Any defender hit takes damage from one shot. A spray uses up 1d4+1 rounds per target. GM adjudication is important here because tightly clustered targets may be hit by more than one round each. Also there is a limit to how many opponents can effectively be targeted in 1 attack. It is impossible to write rules that cover every situation so GM common sense should prevail.
Missiles:
When firing missiles singly or in a volley, roll to strike using all relevant modifiers. That is the Strike roll for the FIRST missile. Every missile in a volley beyond the first missile gains a cumulative +1 to Strike. Example, I fire 4 missiles. My Strike roll is a 15. Thus missiles 2,3,and 4 have strike rolls of 16, 17, and 18, respectively. Next the defender rolls to dodge. If he rolls 18 or higher than he is ok and dodged all the missiles. If he rolled a 16, then he is hit by two missiles (those with strike rolls of 17 and 18) and dodges two.
Called shots:
Making a called shot is difficult but can be done. Some mecha have specific called shot modifiers depending upon the location. You can use these or use mine. I generally hold that the head is -8 and that specific limbs are -4. Other areas can be determined by the GM on a case by case basis. Of course, individual GMs are free to change these values for increased or reduced lethality. An attacker must announce a called shot and then roll to strike. The defender can dodge and the called shot modifier can be applied as a penalty to the attackers roll or as a bonus to the defenders. I usually say bonus for the defender. Any strike roll that rolls high enough to hit but not high enough to hit with the called shot modifier hits the main body instead. Called shots to the head that miss, miss completely. A called shot costs 2 attacks and must be a single shot. Weapons that cannot fire single shots cannot be used for called shots. Generally the head and/or any limb can take 25% of the damage that the main body can unless otherwise noted.
Movement:
A character can generally move anywhere and as much as they like within reason everytime their turn in combat comes up. Look at a characters speed and extrapolate from there. To encourage fast anime-style combat, any "reasonable" movement should be allowed. Movement is usually free.
Any Palladium rule not specifically superceded by my house rules was generally kept as is or adjudicated on a case by case basis.
--------------
Number of Attacks:
Every character gets a base of 2 Hand-to-Hand Attacks per round PLUS whatever they get from HTH Martial Arts or Expert or whatever (including any of the myriad martial arts in N&S or Mystic China). So a level one character with HTH martial arts would get 4 attacks (+1 if they took Boxing). An attack does not necessarily mean you have to actually attack. Any significant action in combat could be used as an "attack". GM discretion. Minor actions are generally free, and you can also generally move up to your speed in addition to attacking. Combat should be fluid, freeform, cinematic and fun. A single attack action on your turn in initiative order could simply be: "I punch my enemy" all the way to, "My character leaps across the table, and fires his pistol at the guy by the door."
General combat:
Combat flow is the same. Roll initiative. Combatants take turns in descending initiative order. Roll to Strike when you attack. If you are being attacked then you can roll to Parry or Dodge. Move to the next combatant until everyone has used up all their attacks. Roll initiative again. Repeat.
The Palladium combat system offers a wide variety of different combat moves which can apply different modifiers to your strikes, dodges, and parries. The Ninjas and Superspies RPG probably has the most exhaustive list.
Some special combat moves take up more than one attack. Thats fine, simply subtract the cost of the move from the number of attacks you have remaining in your attack "pool" so to speak. Most magic spells or special powers or whatever usually cost 1 attack.
You can delay and act later in the initiative order, but if you wait until your turn comes back around your action is lost. Don't forget that unlike in d20, everyone rerolls initiative once all combatants have used up all their attacks. A single combat round is approximately 15 seconds and starts when initiative is rolled, and ends when everyone is out of attacks. If combat is continuing then you would reroll initiative for the second round of combat.
Dodging:
Dodging costs 1 attack unless you have Auto-Dodge, but you don't lose your turn. Example, I have 4 attacks. I have highest init, so I go first. I attack and the defender dodges or parries. I have 3 attacks left. My foe attacks me. I dodge and now have 2 attacks left. My turn again, I attack and now have 1 attack left. And so on.
You CAN dodge even if you are out of attacks but dodging will cost you attacks if you have them. If you have Auto-Dodge then you do not lose an attack when you dodge.
If you are surrounded by numerous foes or fighting a particularly tough one it is conceivable that you might choose to spend most of your actions dodging and not attack back. In this case, winning initiative in a subsequent round becomes important so that you can go first and attack. Or you can choose to not dodge one of the attacks and save an attack action for striking.
If multiple enemies attack you before your next turn in initiative order comes up again, you can opt to apply the results of one dodge roll against all attacks until your turn in initiative comes up again, or you can spend an attack to roll your dodge again. Once your turn in initiative comes up, your dodge ends regardless of whether you choose to attack or not.
Dodge rules generally apply to parries as well, but most HTH styles make parry an auto-action meaning you can roll unlimited parries and it never costs an attack. Generally speaking, you can only parry melee attacks unless otherwised allowed per the description of a power or special ability. All attacks can be dodged.
Bursts:
You can fire several different kind of bursts. They do varying degrees of damage depending on how long you hold the trigger down and how many rounds you use up. Any weapon that says it has "Standard rate of fire" or can fire bursts in its description can fire bursts. Any weapon that specifically says it cannot fire bursts or can only fire single shots or can only fire pre-set pulses/ bursts CANNOT fire bursts. For example, some rail guns only fire pre-set bursts. Those weapons follow the rules in their description and cannot be used to fire freeform variable bursts as written below. When in doubt, GM decides. All bursts cost 1 attack to use. Its simply a matter of how many rounds you want to fire. If you have a vehicle, a power back, or are playing a Bot or a Borg, you can link an energy weapon such as laser or plasma weapons to your power system and can basically fire long-bursts all day long without worrying about ammo. Obviously this doesn't apply to weapons that fire solid projectiles like regular guns, rail guns, etc.
Mini- burst: uses up 1d4+1 rounds and does x2 damage
Short-burst: uses up 1d6+4 rounds and does x3 damage
Medium burst: uses up 1d8 +6 rounds and does x4 damage
Long-burst: uses up 1d10+8 rounds and does x5 damage
Sprays:
A burst capable weapon can spray any number of adjacent targets (within reason, GM's should rule out ridiculous abuses). Roll to strike normally and each defender can choose to roll a dodge vs. that one strike roll. Any defender hit takes damage from one shot. A spray uses up 1d4+1 rounds per target. GM adjudication is important here because tightly clustered targets may be hit by more than one round each. Also there is a limit to how many opponents can effectively be targeted in 1 attack. It is impossible to write rules that cover every situation so GM common sense should prevail.
Missiles:
When firing missiles singly or in a volley, roll to strike using all relevant modifiers. That is the Strike roll for the FIRST missile. Every missile in a volley beyond the first missile gains a cumulative +1 to Strike. Example, I fire 4 missiles. My Strike roll is a 15. Thus missiles 2,3,and 4 have strike rolls of 16, 17, and 18, respectively. Next the defender rolls to dodge. If he rolls 18 or higher than he is ok and dodged all the missiles. If he rolled a 16, then he is hit by two missiles (those with strike rolls of 17 and 18) and dodges two.
Called shots:
Making a called shot is difficult but can be done. Some mecha have specific called shot modifiers depending upon the location. You can use these or use mine. I generally hold that the head is -8 and that specific limbs are -4. Other areas can be determined by the GM on a case by case basis. Of course, individual GMs are free to change these values for increased or reduced lethality. An attacker must announce a called shot and then roll to strike. The defender can dodge and the called shot modifier can be applied as a penalty to the attackers roll or as a bonus to the defenders. I usually say bonus for the defender. Any strike roll that rolls high enough to hit but not high enough to hit with the called shot modifier hits the main body instead. Called shots to the head that miss, miss completely. A called shot costs 2 attacks and must be a single shot. Weapons that cannot fire single shots cannot be used for called shots. Generally the head and/or any limb can take 25% of the damage that the main body can unless otherwise noted.
Movement:
A character can generally move anywhere and as much as they like within reason everytime their turn in combat comes up. Look at a characters speed and extrapolate from there. To encourage fast anime-style combat, any "reasonable" movement should be allowed. Movement is usually free.
Any Palladium rule not specifically superceded by my house rules was generally kept as is or adjudicated on a case by case basis.
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I'll agree with most of the above and add this: one big problem with the system is that known problems continue to survive through the multiple versions of the game. Odds are good that if you encounter a bit of wonkyness in the game, its been there from the very first printing.
Its a bit like a crunchier version of 1Ed, as stated mostly because of the type of material its ruleset has to cover- psionics, alien tech, and armors that are utterly impervious to most kinds of attacks a normal person could launch.
(My Palladium "resume"- Palladium RPG, RIFTS, Heroes Unlimited, Beyond the Supernatural, Robotech, After the Bomb and others.)
Its a bit like a crunchier version of 1Ed, as stated mostly because of the type of material its ruleset has to cover- psionics, alien tech, and armors that are utterly impervious to most kinds of attacks a normal person could launch.
(My Palladium "resume"- Palladium RPG, RIFTS, Heroes Unlimited, Beyond the Supernatural, Robotech, After the Bomb and others.)
daddystabz
Explorer
Let me get this straight.....from what I'm reading all you have to do on a strike roll to hit a target in combat (mecha or not) is to roll above a 4, after modifiers! This seems incredibly easy. I know you can parry/dodge or do a simultaneous attach against these but this seems incredibly easy! Is this correct?
Also, it seems for called shots all you have to do is call the location you want to hit before hand and then make a successful strike roll vs. the target's parry or dodge. You don't even take a penalty to hit depending on what body location you wish to hit....head, legs, arm, etc.
Also, it seems for called shots all you have to do is call the location you want to hit before hand and then make a successful strike roll vs. the target's parry or dodge. You don't even take a penalty to hit depending on what body location you wish to hit....head, legs, arm, etc.
Krensky
First Post
Honestly, if I was going to run a(nother) Macross game I'd use Mekton Z (with a little Fuzion on the character side) for it (again).
If, for some reason, I was going to run a Robotech game, I'd do the same rather then struggle with Palladium. MTS (the mecha/gadget/whatever) building system, isn't that hard and I'm fairly confident someone on the game's mailing list has done the variable fighters from Shadow Chronicles.
If, for some reason, I was going to run a Robotech game, I'd do the same rather then struggle with Palladium. MTS (the mecha/gadget/whatever) building system, isn't that hard and I'm fairly confident someone on the game's mailing list has done the variable fighters from Shadow Chronicles.
daddystabz
Explorer
I'm not struggling with the Palladium system at all though. I find it rather simple actually. In fact, I don't think it is half as bad as what some people have let on and it is very workable/house ruleable. I just wanted to make sure my above impressions were indeed correct.
I am still ordering copies of Mekton Zeta and Plus though as well.
I am still ordering copies of Mekton Zeta and Plus though as well.
Wik
First Post
Add another Palladium hater, here. The system doesn't make a whole lot of sense, and the various numbers in the game do not scale well with each other. So, you could have a rocket that dealt, say, 2d6 mega-damage, and it would have flavour text saying it can easily take out a tank in one hit. Then, you'd see the listing for an average tank having, say, twenty mega-damage. Then, in the same book, you'll see another tank that has 60 mega-damage. And then, also in the same book, there will be an artillery cannon that happens to deal 10d4 megadamage.
Nothing is on the same scale, and that can make things very annoying.
The skill system used to annoy me, but in play, it actually works out fairly well. There are some problems with it (only a high intelligence improves your skill modifier, low stats do not reduce your skills, and the book doesn't detail modifiers for difficult or easy skill checks), but they're decent as a starting point.
Combat in Palladium is awful. Apparently, it works in the basic RPG, but in all of the tacked-on games, it sucks. It really turns into a "He who has the most actions, wins" - and a series of swapping dice rolls until somebody gets lucky. I'm sure Siembieda will step in and explain just how "realistic" it is - I used to cringe reading his rulebooks, when he'd step in and explain just how perfect a rule mechanic was.
(For what it's worth, I can't stand his writing style. I always feel like he's talking down to me!)
Those, by the way, are all problems with the Palladium system in general. ROBOTECH is one of the better ones, and we actually played it for a bit. The problem with it is one that you see in all mech-based RPGs - how to make characters matter when they spend most of their time inside a mech. The numbers in the game are kept comparitively low, making the game work internally - just don't put Robotech mechs into a RIFTS game, or they'll be blown away. As a case in point, I think the SDF-1 in Robotech has half the mega-damage of a Glitter-Boy mech in RIFTS.
the character classes, as I remember them, were fairly interesting, and fit the genre well. Our biggest problem had to do with making your character worthwhile - we were in our mechs so often, that it didn't really seem like our character choices mattered. What made this worse was the fact that there are no rules for repairing your mechs, meaning if you play a mechanic character, there's no real reward for doing so. After all, does a successful repair check mean you've fully repaired your mech, or what? How long does a repair check take? And so on.
In fact, that's the big problem with the game. There's a lot of unexplained information in a game that doesn't have a unified mechanic or anything like that. Meaning, most of the game is in the GM's hands. For some groups, that's a great thing (and I personally think that most ongoing Palladium games are ongoing because the GM is good at what he does), but in general, I think that can be a problem.
Carrying on, we found ourselves playing wildly different characters (I think I was an Ace Pilot, my friend was a mechanic, and we had a Gunner-type character... It was over ten years ago, so I'm hazy on the details)... but we all decided to go for the same mech. And really, most of the mechs seemed pretty similar in capabilities. And if one player chose a different mech, what you'd see would be only one character in the group acting at any one time - the long range guy would fire at will while his companions sat around... then the enemies would get to middle range, and the middle-range mech would have a feel day... and then the enemies would close, and your close range mech would kick butt while the companions did very little.
So, yeah. We played it for a month or so, and then gave up. It wasn't fun for us. At the time, I vastly preferred mechwarrior. Now that I'm not so into the Giant Robot thing, I wouldn't really run either game... but if I had to choose between the two, I'd still go with Mechwarrior (unless the Catalyst Edition has seriously been changed from the 2nd Edition Mechwarrior rules).
Nothing is on the same scale, and that can make things very annoying.
The skill system used to annoy me, but in play, it actually works out fairly well. There are some problems with it (only a high intelligence improves your skill modifier, low stats do not reduce your skills, and the book doesn't detail modifiers for difficult or easy skill checks), but they're decent as a starting point.
Combat in Palladium is awful. Apparently, it works in the basic RPG, but in all of the tacked-on games, it sucks. It really turns into a "He who has the most actions, wins" - and a series of swapping dice rolls until somebody gets lucky. I'm sure Siembieda will step in and explain just how "realistic" it is - I used to cringe reading his rulebooks, when he'd step in and explain just how perfect a rule mechanic was.
(For what it's worth, I can't stand his writing style. I always feel like he's talking down to me!)
Those, by the way, are all problems with the Palladium system in general. ROBOTECH is one of the better ones, and we actually played it for a bit. The problem with it is one that you see in all mech-based RPGs - how to make characters matter when they spend most of their time inside a mech. The numbers in the game are kept comparitively low, making the game work internally - just don't put Robotech mechs into a RIFTS game, or they'll be blown away. As a case in point, I think the SDF-1 in Robotech has half the mega-damage of a Glitter-Boy mech in RIFTS.
the character classes, as I remember them, were fairly interesting, and fit the genre well. Our biggest problem had to do with making your character worthwhile - we were in our mechs so often, that it didn't really seem like our character choices mattered. What made this worse was the fact that there are no rules for repairing your mechs, meaning if you play a mechanic character, there's no real reward for doing so. After all, does a successful repair check mean you've fully repaired your mech, or what? How long does a repair check take? And so on.
In fact, that's the big problem with the game. There's a lot of unexplained information in a game that doesn't have a unified mechanic or anything like that. Meaning, most of the game is in the GM's hands. For some groups, that's a great thing (and I personally think that most ongoing Palladium games are ongoing because the GM is good at what he does), but in general, I think that can be a problem.
Carrying on, we found ourselves playing wildly different characters (I think I was an Ace Pilot, my friend was a mechanic, and we had a Gunner-type character... It was over ten years ago, so I'm hazy on the details)... but we all decided to go for the same mech. And really, most of the mechs seemed pretty similar in capabilities. And if one player chose a different mech, what you'd see would be only one character in the group acting at any one time - the long range guy would fire at will while his companions sat around... then the enemies would get to middle range, and the middle-range mech would have a feel day... and then the enemies would close, and your close range mech would kick butt while the companions did very little.
So, yeah. We played it for a month or so, and then gave up. It wasn't fun for us. At the time, I vastly preferred mechwarrior. Now that I'm not so into the Giant Robot thing, I wouldn't really run either game... but if I had to choose between the two, I'd still go with Mechwarrior (unless the Catalyst Edition has seriously been changed from the 2nd Edition Mechwarrior rules).
jdrakeh
Front Range Warlock
Some skills are tied to a d100. Other skills aren't rolled for at all but, rather, work to modify attributes. Still others are governed by their own weird-o subsystems.
Dragonblade
Adventurer
Palladium combat is opposed rolls. When the defender rolls to attack, they roll 1d20 and add their strike bonus. The defender then can choose to dodge or parry (unless they are doing some other exotic maneuver from N&S or something). The Defender then rolls 1d20 and adds their Dodge or Parry bonus as appropriate.
For example, I have +10 to strike and I punch my opponent. I roll d20 + 10. So let's say, I roll 14. So my attack roll is 14+10=24. Then the defender rolls a parry. Let's say he has a parry bonus of +7. He therefore needs to roll a 17 or higher on a d20 to parry the roll which makes his roll a 24. If the defender fails then he may stil have other options to reduce the damage taken. For example, there is a combat maneuver called Roll with Punch/Fall/Impact that he may be able to do.
In Palladium, Defender wins ties. Its kind of the opposite of how 3.5/4e D&D works. In D&D, the attacker has to meet or exceed the defenders AC which is 10 plus modifiers. But in Palladium, the attacker rolls and then the defender has to meet or exceed that number to avoid the attack.
Under the rules as written, once you are out of attacks, you do pretty much stand there. If you don't actively dodge (or parry but you can't parry ranged attacks unless a special ability lets you do so) then according to the book, the attacker just needs to roll above a 4 to hit you. This can happen frequently because unless you have auto-dodge, then it costs you an action to dodge. If the attacker has more attacks than you, they just need to keep attacking until you are out of attacks and then you stand there while they waste you. I think thats stupid so I changed the rule in my house rules so that you can always roll a dodge, even after you run out of attacks.
Called shots are powerful and as GM it is your right to disallow them entirely. We used them a lot on our RIFTS game and we liked them. It made it easier to take down armored opponents with hundreds of MDC on their main body and made combat faster, more lethal, but also more cinematic and anime-like.
Using my previous example, if the attacker was trying to attack the head of his opponent, then there is a -8 penalty to hit (per my house rules). So his roll would either be reduced to 24-8=16, and that would be the number the Defender had to meet or exceed on his dodge or parry roll. Or it would stay 24 and the defender would roll 1d20+7+8 and would need a 9 or higher to avoid the attack. You can apply the called shot penalty to the attackers roll or provide a bonus to the defender. The attacker does have to declare the called shot before rolling.
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