Paper Minions - WT?

[ValhallaGH]

Well, that is a cinematic fight that at least supports my proposed houserule where minions go often go down in 1 to 3 successful hits, not 1 for every one. Thanks.

I have to completely disagree.
Those were a bunch of 1 hit minions, that went down as soon as they'd taken a solid blow.
Repeated blows were necessary on four occasions because he didn't (quite) hit their defenses the first time. But none of those thugs really had anything resembling his ability to take many hits.
They were, however, good enough to hit him and survive a few attacks by him.

 

[KarinsDad]

I have to completely disagree.
Those were a bunch of 1 hit minions, that went down as soon as they'd taken a solid blow.
Repeated blows were necessary on four occasions because he didn't (quite) hit their defenses the first time. But none of those thugs really had anything resembling his ability to take many hits.
They were, however, good enough to hit him and survive a few attacks by him.

You couldn't tell I was being facetious?

It's really silly when people seriously try to compare movies to DND game mechanics in order to support or not support a given set of rules. I LMAO every single time someone does that.

 

[Mallus]

Knowledge is power.

Exactly.

In this case, knowing that there are probably minions and knowing which are not minions is a great deal of metagaming power.

Knowledge of opponents gained during battle through direct observation and interaction shouldn't be labeled 'metagaming'. Begs the question, 'what's actual gaming then?'

And your example w/the knife-throwers shows how a combat should work. The PC combatants start with the opportunity to use ranged weapons. Great. Take it. It's safer than rushing in, and this being 4e, a dagger can actual stop someone. So the PC's toss daggers --you should think of this as the PC's trying to kill their targets, not test for minionhood-- and the inexperienced attackers fall. Fine. That leaves the veterans who close for melee...

How is this bad, again?

Observe the enemy, react accordingly. It's practical Sun Tzu, mate. Reading the DM's notes, now that's metagaming.

 

[BartD]

Death save

Disclamer: I haven't read the whole thread (more like 10 first+last posts) so thin mayalready have been suggested.

I am not sure I like the "always goes down when hit" thing so I have considered giving minions a "death save" to avoid dying when damaged. On average, that will let minions survive about one hit, but the most important thing is that it will introduce some uncertainty without requiring any bookkeeping. I suppose the XP value should be something like +50% since durability is roughly doubled while offense in unchanged.

Anyway, if "always goes down when hit" turns out to be a problem in my games, this is probably what I will do. It should certainly be a lot simpler than hitpoints.

 

[KarinsDad]

Disclamer: I haven't read the whole thread (more like 10 first+last posts) so thin mayalready have been suggested.

I am not sure I like the "always goes down when hit" thing so I have considered giving minions a "death save" to avoid dying when damaged. On average, that will let minions survive about one hit, but the most important thing is that it will introduce some uncertainty without requiring any bookkeeping. I suppose the XP value should be something like +50% since durability is roughly doubled while offense in unchanged.

Anyway, if "always goes down when hit" turns out to be a problem in my games, this is probably what I will do. It should certainly be a lot simpler than hitpoints.

I considered this, but the problem I see with it is that if the goal of the DM is to obscure the "players know he's a minion vs. know he's not a minion" line (like it is for me), this forces the DM to roll saves for every monster on every hit, even if he is ignoring the information and even if there are no minions in the group.

If the issue for the DM is just that minions are made out of paper and the DM does not care if the players know whether a given NPC is a minion or not, then this solution would work ok and be fairly quick (although it is possible to make 8 saves in a roll, turning it into Super Minion).

 

[Samurai]

From a personal perspective, I don't see this being unrealistic. Back when I studied martial arts, I could size up an opponent pretty quickly, by the time the first few punches were thrown if not before. You can see it in their eyes, their stance, the way they attack. It's a necessary skill if you intend to do well when sparring (assuming one hasn't been burdened with an overabundence of natural talent in which case it's simply helpful). And I'm no adventurer.

That 5 dagger tactic seems to me like it would be sub-par. In return for a full round of the PCs attacks they dropped 2 minions and did minimal damage to a non-minion? If I'm running the combat the remaining 8 will take up tactical flanking positions on the PCs (preferrably the less armored ones) and proceed to beat them senseless. It's almost as good as giving the enemy a surprise round.

Most characters should be using their at-will abilities on the first round, inflicting a reasonable amount of damage/ debuffs on them while feeling the enemy out. The defenders should be getting in the grill of the biggest, meanest looking enemy they can see and marking them. It's the wizard who should be trying to play "guess the minions" so they can burst their bubbles. I admit that I haven't seen it attempted, but I can't see the 5 dagger opener being especially effective.

Of course the characters won't use it against the group of 4. One of the assumptions of D&D (even moreso than in the past, it seems, in 4e) is that parties fight monsters that aren't too dangerous or too easy. If anything, I'd say the metagame assumption is that when the party comes across 20 bandits or a BFD (big frikkin dragon) they initially assume they can win the fight, assuming the DM isn't dropping hints to make them think otherwise. It's almost silly that, after stopping the BBEG's plans, he doesn't send some uber-monster to destroy the PCs (something 10 levels above them). But, since it's a game and that wouldn't be fun, we assume that the BBEG is busy with other matters, or mortally incompetent/ arrogant, or what have you.

It's your game and I'm not trying to tell you how to play it. I'm just somewhat doubtful that your "fix" will remedy the "problem".

As a player of a 3.5 character who has significant AoE powers, playing in a group where everyone else is a melee combatant, I've found that if you don't let loose with your big AoE power in round 1, chances are you're going to be hitting your allies too. Which means you don't have time to determine who is and isn't a minion, because like you said, on round 2 they are surrounding you.

Really, from an in-game perspective, if 8 size Large Cyclops are rushing at you, there is about 6 seconds until they get to you and your friends, are you going to fire of a little at will power because as a player you know they must be minions, or are you going to let loose with your Daily power in the only opportunity you'll have without blasting your party as well, hoping to at least scare off the brutes before they pound you to mush?

And, what if you thought they were minions and they weren't? The GM may have set up a very challenging fight for the party, using the assumption that the big AoE on round 1 would significantly weaken the opponents. But everyone assumed they were just minions, and so wasted a round just doing at wills! By the time they realized these were real foes, not minions, it was too late for the big guns because they'd closed to melee range. If there were some way before Epic levels to exclude allies from AoE, it would be much less of a problem (though you still basically wasted a round of attacks using the popguns instead of the big guns, which means you might as well have given them a full extra round of attacks...)

What this means is that I will not be shocked at all if a significant number of Wizards (and others) use their big Daily powers expecting a tough battle aginst numerous foes, only to have them drop like flies. And to have other instances where players guess they are minions when they aren't, and waste a round doing at wills and minor attacks instead of pulling out the big gun to soften them up before they get to melee range.

 

[Korgoth]

Can I just say that though there have been a number of decent minion explanations and clarifications floated in this thread, I for one thought that Korgoth's first post on this issue was really really cool and I'm sad that it didn't get more appreciation.

Thank-you Korgoth, initial anger at narrativism aside, that was an excellent way to read the rules and I'm happy to have seen it.

Also, I'd like to add that I, for one, would like to welcome our new Dragon Minion overlords.

Thanks! I'm glad it helped.

I had the advantage of having started my own Minion MegaThread and giving some serious thought to the ideas therein. There were a number of interesting posts; Charwoman Gene in particular had a very thought-provoking entry that more or less turned on the lightbulb for me.

Ultimately I think the rule will work out just fine.

 

[billd91]

After some thought on the issues, I came up with the mechanic that I will be using.

I will introduce:

Weak Minions: 1 hit to kill (minions in MM)
Regular Minions: 2 hits to kill
Tough Minions: 3 hits to kill

into my game. I will up the XP for Regular and Strong Minions so that I can still balance an encounter.

I was thinking that might not be a bad solution myself.

One thing about mooks in some other games - they aren't necessarily 1-hittable. In Star Wars d20, they had just wounds, no vitality. That meant they crumpled relatively fast but might be able to take 2-3 hits. In MM, they fall if they fail their damage save (skipping the bruise and stun results), not just if they get hit once. It might be once, or if they're supremely lucky, it might take several hits. In Feng Shui, mooks have to be hit "well enough" as I recall, a fairly easy task but not a given when hitting the mook.

 

[tomBitonti]

The DM has full control over when and where minions appear. Quibbling about a level 22 minion attacking a town is like quibbling over 3E letting you build half-fiend vampire beholder barbarians. If you don't like the result when you push the system into a corner, don't push it there.

Hi,

Not a quibble, just a scenario that would be a problem.

I think we are in agreement that minions should be used within certain guidelines, and that they break down when used outside of those guidelines. (And that, when used outside of the guidelines, there are undesirable results.)

I created the scenario to illustrate my point, which is that there are restrictions (or call them guidelines) on where and how minions should be used.

(I am surprised that the monster manual and dungeon master's guide do not have an explicit guideline, something to the effect: "Minions are tailored to a specific encounter level. Do not use a minion for an encounter when the average party level is more than X different than the minion level.")

 

[BartD]

I considered this, but the problem I see with it is that if the goal of the DM is to obscure the "players know he's a minion vs. know he's not a minion" line (like it is for me), this forces the DM to roll saves for every monster on every hit, even if he is ignoring the information and even if there are no minions in the group.

If the issue for the DM is just that minions are made out of paper and the DM does not care if the players know whether a given NPC is a minion or not, then this solution would work ok and be fairly quick (although it is possible to make 8 saves in a roll, turning it into Super Minion).

Actually, I just thought of a similar but even simpler mechanic that will also solve "players know he's a minion vs. know he's not a minion" line: Even attack rolls kill, odd ones do not. If the players catch on, you switch. Or don't. Or switch next round. Or switch for each attack. Or switch after a hit. Or switch when you feel like it. Or when ...
- Just remember to scribble something as you would do on a regular hit. If your players metagame like that (and you mind their metagaming), you'll have to act exactly as if they hit a non-minion.

Personally, I'm not very concerned with metagaming players (as a 3e5 DM, I make all rolls openly) so I won't have to "switch". Unless I feel like it. Or not.
[I think it's ok for their characters to discount an enemy who misses on a 19 or be afraid of an enemy who rolls 4d10 for damage even if I only roll a 10.]