Paper Minions - WT?

[Zurai]

Furthermore, making minions take more than one hit would mean you had to use less minions. Four minions dying in one hit each replace one standard monster who dies in four hits. If minions take two hits to kill, then two of them replace one standard monster. Three hits, and they might as well be a normal monster.

Incorrect. Four minions are far more dangerous than one monster that takes 4 hits to kill. The minions get 4 attacks every round. The single mob gets 1 attack every round.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Incorrect. Four minions are far more dangerous than one monster that takes 4 hits to kill. The minions get 4 attacks every round. The single mob gets 1 attack every round.

Minions generally deal less damage per hit than a single mob though.

 

[KarinsDad]

Others consider it simple observation.

I have no problem with it if the PCs make the observations. It's when the players make the observations based off of things like NPCs not dying due to a single successful attack or an NPC attacking and doing 6 points of damage without the DM rolling the dice.

This means that the observations is automatically made if the player metagames his PC.

Player: "... You're joking, right?"

The PCs know there are minions because the encounter outnumbers the party.

"... You're joking, right?"

The PCs know nothing of the sort based on enemy numbers alone. The players know this information based on enemy numbers.

The PCs can tell who the minions are because the minions are the first troops sent forwards, just like the expendable peasant infantry were the first ones sent forward in many medieval battles.

Why would this be the case every time? A smart leader sometimes sends in all of his troops to wipe out the PCs, he does not automatically allow the weaker ones to die. This weakens his power base.

Everything you wrote here is total conjecture whose sole purpose is to support the rules as written.

Rules metagaming as it were.

And the problem with requiring an odd or even roll to kill a minion is that 25% of the time minions will take three or more hits to kill, and it will not be uncommon for minions to require more than four hits, making them tougher than a standard monster. That's terrible design, and a possible TPK.

Yup. That's why you make the minions 3 hits max. Give people a little credit. The rule is fine if used properly.

50% die in one hit, 25% die in 2 hits, and 25% die in 3 hits (on average). And, the odds of an earlier round attack killing the minion increases slightly if even numbers are picked since there is a chance that more even rolls will hit a given AC than odd ones. There is never a chance that more odd rolls with hit a given AC.

 

[KarinsDad]

Minions generally deal less damage per hit than a single mob though.

Not 25% of a single mob damage though.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Not 25% of a single mob damage though.

But with minions you have to make 4 attacks. Its not 25% per hit, but theoretically it should work out that 4 minions do the same amount of damage as a single monsters of comparable level. Now I say theoretically because I really dont want to do the math, so take it as you will.

 

[ForbidenMaster]

Agreed.

However, regardless of how the game is played, earlier versions had definitive statements that the players could not just say "I target the leader with Hold Person". The player had to say which NPC he wanted to target.

In 4E, there appears to be this hand waving of "Oh, go ahead, tell the player which NPC is the leader so that he can cast Hold Person on him". It gets back to the player entitlement issue that some people dislike.

Some people consider it cinematic license. Others consider it metagaming.

On what basis do you make this claim? The rules for identifying monsters in combat havent changed from 3.x. If you see a big mob giving orders, he is the leader. If you dont see a big mob giving orders, you dont know who the leader is, or even if there is one at all.

 

[Hussar]

Well, that is a cinematic fight that at least supports my proposed houserule where minions go often go down in 1 to 3 successful hits, not 1 for every one. Thanks.

Did you watch the same video?

Almost every guy, certainly every guy who gets hit with the hammer, goes down in one hit. And, every guy that goes down, goes down in one attack sequence. None of them get up afterwards, except the fat guy at the end - one non-minion maybe?

I think you are fixating too much on the idea that one attack roll must be one and only one attack. That D&D combat is simulationist. It's not. Never has been. The video shows a perfect example of using minion rules, even if it doesn't line up 100% perfectly with the exact letter of the rules.

 

[Hussar]

You couldn't tell I was being facetious?

It's really silly when people seriously try to compare movies to DND game mechanics in order to support or not support a given set of rules. I LMAO every single time someone does that.

Why? One of the biggest inspiration for D&D games is movies. The further the rules are from allowing me to do that cool thing that I saw in a movie the worse the game is for me. I'd much rather my game look like Indiana Jones than Civ 4.

In our games, the PCs were outnumbered by 2 to 1 in at least 25% of all battles (as DM, I must like big battles because I do it quite often, I guess I like the fact that it appears more threatening than it might actually be and it adds an element of serious risk and challenge).

The reason that the PCs often survived is: a) many of the opponents were not spell casters in those situations (just like 4E minions with few or no special powers), b) the PCs had multiple spellcasters to heal, do crowd control, to damage multiple enemies with one attack, etc. (just like 4E), c) the mook types did not have as many magical items to assist (just like 4E), and d) the mook types were often 1 or 2 levels lower than the PCs (the slightly lower levels of 3E was replaced with 1 hit point paper targets in 4E).

We've had battles with as many as 25 or 30 opponents (I think our max was 42 or some such, but such large battles tend to come in waves over several rounds) against 5 or 6 PCs in 3E. We've often had battles where the battle spilled into a different area with more enemies or where nearby enemies were alerted and came to investigate.

All of this worked in 3E. The advantage of the minion rules in 4E is not so much that it allows large battles. Being outnumbered happened in many 3E combats. The advantage of the minion rules is that it's less bookkeeping for the DM and allows for more "same level" opponents. The offense of the mooks increased slightly, but the defense (i.e. hit points, the last bastion of defense in damaging combat) went right out the door.

I've seen this claim a few times and I really have to wonder how you did it.

You say 6 PC's, so for a 2:1 fight, that's 12 critters. Assume for a second a 10th level party. We'll go very challenging and create an EL 14 fight. That means you would have 12 CR 7 creatures. Note, this is an overpowering fight and I should be killing PC's here. CR 7 gives us Dire Tigers.

Ok, a pride of dire tigers decends on the party. They have an AC of 17 meaning the PC's pretty much never miss, but, 120 hp's each mean that they manage to stand up to 10th level fighter types for a round or two. Saves range from 13 to 11, meaning the wizard is going to have an absolute field day. However, at +20 attack, they aren't hitting the armored types at 10th level very often. A couple of AC buffs and the armor types are giggling all day long. And this is in an encounter that, by CR, should be overwhelming. The party should be retreating from this. However, because the baddies are so much weaker, not only is the party not running, they're pretty much able to ignore the challenge presented.

You say that minions get a "slight" offense bump. That's simply not true. They are getting a HUGE offense bump. And, remember, it's not a 2:1 ratio, it's a FOUR :1 ratio. That's four actions, as opposed to two. And actions that have a reasonable chance of hurting the PC's, rather than wasting time at the table.

See, I've run those large combats as well. And my experience has been the exact opposite of yours. So, I'm wondering what you're doing that I'm not. How are your groups acting as a challenge to the party?

 

[KarinsDad]

But with minions you have to make 4 attacks. Its not 25% per hit, but theoretically it should work out that 4 minions do the same amount of damage as a single monsters of comparable level. Now I say theoretically because I really dont want to do the math, so take it as you will.

Actually, minion battles will often result in more damage shy of some special PC ability to take out multiple minions in a single round.

As an example, a first level Goblin Minion has AC 16, +5 to hit, and does 4 points of damage. 4 of them do a lot more damage per round than a first level Goblin Lurker (AC 16, +5 to hit, D6+2 damage) or a first level Goblin Skirmisher (AC 17, +6 to hit, D8+2 damage), even though these are consider equivalent encounters based on XP.

As an example, with a 40% chance to hit for the Minion, they average 1.6 points per round (each, including criticals which do not increase the damage), the Lurker averages 2.325 damage, and the Skirmisher averages 3.1 points of damage.

So if there are 4 minions, they will average 6.4 of damage on the first round (assuming they win initiative) whereas the other two average less damage. In a 1 PC vs. either 4 minions or 1 non-minion, the 4 minions will probably average about 30% to 40% more damage overall. Regardless of how quickly the PC can get rid of a given goblin foe, the damage ratio (this is a ratio, not a total of real damage) would be 6.4 + 4.8 + 3.2 + 1.6 vs. 2.325 + 2.325 + 2.325 + 2.325 or 3.1 + 3.1 + 3.1 + 3.1, or 16 vs. 9.3 vs. 12.4.

This is extremely rough estimating of these ratios with minions falling by the wayside quicker than non-minions, but basically valid (of course the skirmisher will take slightly longer to dispose of). And, there will be a lot of factors here, but the bottom line is that it will often take about the same amount of time to dispose of 4 minions as it does 1 non-minion, but there are typically 2 to 3 times as many overall attacks by the 4 minions for 50% to 65% of the damage of a single non-minion.

The counter for this increase in monster damage by minions over same XP non-minions is to have PCs kill multiple minions with a single power such as the Fighter's Cleave power.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Why? One of the biggest inspiration for D&D games is movies. The further the rules are from allowing me to do that cool thing that I saw in a movie the worse the game is for me. I'd much rather my game look like Indiana Jones than Civ 4.



I've seen this claim a few times and I really have to wonder how you did it.

You say 6 PC's, so for a 2:1 fight, that's 12 critters. Assume for a second a 10th level party. We'll go very challenging and create an EL 14 fight. That means you would have 12 CR 7 creatures. Note, this is an overpowering fight and I should be killing PC's here. CR 7 gives us Dire Tigers.

Ok, a pride of dire tigers decends on the party. They have an AC of 17 meaning the PC's pretty much never miss, but, 120 hp's each mean that they manage to stand up to 10th level fighter types for a round or two. Saves range from 13 to 11, meaning the wizard is going to have an absolute field day. However, at +20 attack, they aren't hitting the armored types at 10th level very often. A couple of AC buffs and the armor types are giggling all day long. And this is in an encounter that, by CR, should be overwhelming. The party should be retreating from this. However, because the baddies are so much weaker, not only is the party not running, they're pretty much able to ignore the challenge presented.

You say that minions get a "slight" offense bump. That's simply not true. They are getting a HUGE offense bump. And, remember, it's not a 2:1 ratio, it's a FOUR :1 ratio. That's four actions, as opposed to two. And actions that have a reasonable chance of hurting the PC's, rather than wasting time at the table.

See, I've run those large combats as well. And my experience has been the exact opposite of yours. So, I'm wondering what you're doing that I'm not. How are your groups acting as a challenge to the party?

It's interesting. I also run lots of large combats in 3.5--this is advantaged by my ability to easily handle large masses of monsters by memory (in this sense, the minions rules wouldn't really help me). It really can work in 3.5. It's true that a high-AC character could be ridiculous by level 10, but +20 to hit is usually going to do pretty well (and remember +2 from charge) against most level 10 characters.

I recently ran a finale at the end of the term for my group of seven gestalt-balanced PCs with an NPC along for the ride (so 8 characters), and ironically, adjusted for being gestalt, etc, they are exactly ECL 10. They fought 35 powerful beasts, followed quickly by a gargantuan and deadly Shadowtainted Corrupted ooze and then a Mahou Tsukai and his two Oni bodyguards.

It's true that the 35 beasts were the easiest encounter for them, but that was by design--it was meant to be a welcome party to a very unhospitable environment while still showing the PCs that even though most people would die here almost immediately, the PCs were awesome and could handle it. The beasts still caused the party significant headache and enough losses of spells and HP to matter, as I expected, and it gave the people with AoE a field day, which was good because I knew they wouldn't have as much use on the other two encounters.

I had created a slightly more advanced version of the 35 creature ambush that would have been a major setback for the party. Some of the characters have 24+ in Dex (one has both 24 in Wis and 22 in Dex and adds both to AC), and still no one had better than 28 AC with buffs up. Dire Tigers are still a threat to some of the party members when they go solo, although these enemies were not Dire Tigers, and I know this, ironically, because there is a party meme forming where a member who is close to leveling up will search out a Dire Tiger and try to solo it (so far, the Wu Jen barely won when his Earth Spirit Familiar dealt the finishing blow, and the Martial Artist and Ninja both had to flee at 1 HP). They don't weather a full pounce too well. Make the Dire Tiger Fiendish, and now the Wu Jen can't beat it either (due to Fire Resistance).