Paragon Multiclassing: What am I missing?
- Thread starter Ulorian - Agent of Chaos
- Start date
Ulorian - Agent of Chaos
Legend
Not sure what you're getting at, but you've definitely misunderstood lkj's point. He's saying that, according to Customer Service (take that for what it's worth), when you take the paragon multiclassing option, you can upgrade the powers you pick up at 11th, 12th, and 20th level once you get into the epic tier.
garyh
First Post
Well, presumably the +4 bastard sword isn't the first magical bastard sword this character has ever found. Assuming he had a +2 bastard sword earlier in his career and given the 20% sale price, keeping the +2 as a backup - especially if it has a different power than the +4 - is probably a smart move. Doubly so for someone bound for Kensai.
Pickles JG
First Post
Future Proofing
The powers you get are about the same level - 11P 17 23 27 encounter & 19 20p 25 29 daily versus 13 17 23 27 encounter & 19 19 25 29 daily. The swapped at will may be marginal - a rogue might want twin strike or a ranger bolstering strike say. Human do well from this one of course, as most classses do not have 3 at wills they want.
Missing any class or paragon features now does seem to make it sub par. However I think this is to proof it against any future too good combinations - as you can cherry pick powers this option will become stronger the more powers & classes there are to pick from.
As a DM I would be inclined to let players have some extra benefit from their second class. An extra utility at 16 is my favoured one but some access to class features would also be negotiable. A universal action point benefit might be nice.
Unexpected Action
"If you use an action point to use a power from one class then powers from the other class get +2 to hit & +2 damage until the start of your next turn. Damage bonus increases to +5 at 21 level."
The powers you get are about the same level - 11P 17 23 27 encounter & 19 20p 25 29 daily versus 13 17 23 27 encounter & 19 19 25 29 daily. The swapped at will may be marginal - a rogue might want twin strike or a ranger bolstering strike say. Human do well from this one of course, as most classses do not have 3 at wills they want.
Missing any class or paragon features now does seem to make it sub par. However I think this is to proof it against any future too good combinations - as you can cherry pick powers this option will become stronger the more powers & classes there are to pick from.
As a DM I would be inclined to let players have some extra benefit from their second class. An extra utility at 16 is my favoured one but some access to class features would also be negotiable. A universal action point benefit might be nice.
Unexpected Action
"If you use an action point to use a power from one class then powers from the other class get +2 to hit & +2 damage until the start of your next turn. Damage bonus increases to +5 at 21 level."
DracoSuave
First Post
Perhaps the Paragon Multiclass Path hives less abilities because the option to gain the powers from multiple roles is as powerful as specializing in a singular role? There is a cost to the power of versatility, and rather than in D&D3rd where you barely felt the cost at all, and they made Prestige classes specifically to do away with that cost altogether, this time with set class-roles, they want you to know that you're giving something up to be a more jack-of-all-tradesy type.
Are the abilities less powerful in raw terms? Yes. That less amount of focused power, however, is the cost for more broad application of power... especially seeing as the multiclass paragon path doesn't cost you any abilities or powers from your -primary- class, which you still receive in abundance.
Are the abilities less powerful in raw terms? Yes. That less amount of focused power, however, is the cost for more broad application of power... especially seeing as the multiclass paragon path doesn't cost you any abilities or powers from your -primary- class, which you still receive in abundance.
Ulorian - Agent of Chaos
Legend
@Pickles JG: I agree except for this point:
1) This is a limp way to design. 2) Any non-multiclass character can already swap out its own powers at every level. By your logic, this has the potential to get out-of-hand as more splatbooks get released (e.g. Fighters will get game-breaking combos once the Martial handbook comes out in October).
Ulorian - Agent of Chaos
Legend
But it does cost you tons of power from the paragon path you would have chosen.
Yes, the versatility gained from multiclassing should cost something, but giving up 3 bonus paragon path features to replace one of your at-will powers is not an even trade. I'd say that the at-will swap is worth one of the paragon path 11th level path features; there's your price paid for versatility. Replace the other 11th level and the 16th level feature, and you've got a route worth exploring.
DracoSuave
First Post
From the PHB, p 28:
Power: You can replace a power with another
power of the same type (at-will attack power, encounter
attack power, daily attack power, or utility power),
of the same level or lower, and from the same class.
And from the page before it:
At 13th, 17th, 23rd, and 27th levels, you can
replace any encounter attack power you know from
your class with a new one of your new level (or an
encounter attack power of a lower level, if you choose).
The first one lets us power-swap through retraining the powers gotten from multiclass feats, provided the new power is from the same class as the old. Alright. Good to know. It doesn't care if that power is from multi-class feats or from the Half-Elf's dilettante ability (so you can retrain that, so long as you don't change classes).
The Second point however hinges on one simple question.... if you take multiclass feats, or even the multiclass paragon path, or -even- a paragon path of the multiclass.... does this allow you to swap using your power swap at levels 13, 17, 23, or 27 (for encounter powers)?
A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass
feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of
meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying
for paragon paths.
So then.... what does this mean? Well, it means that as it stands, you can't use multiclassing to give you the right to swap powers out at levels 13, 15, 17, 19, 23, 25, 27, or 29. All a multiclass feat allows you to do is use that feat to substitute for the class as a prerequisite for paragon paths and for feats. That's all.
'But, Dracosuave, with the awesome badmusic referencing name, how do I get high level abilities with these feats?'
Simple.
Any time you gain a level, you can alter that
decision. Effectively, pretend you’re choosing the
power-swap feat for the first time at the new level
you’ve just gained. You gain back the power that you
gave up originally from your primary class, lose the
power that you chose from your second class, and
make the trade again. You give up a different power
from your primary class and replace it with a new
power of the same level from your second class.
This is -seperate- from the retraining option. This allows you to update your second-class powers, and is the only way to do so. This will not permit you to update your paragon path powers, as those are set in stone, and not affected by your multiclass feats.
However, unlike with a paragon path, you don't have to make the choices for what those extra abilities are until you gain those levels. They are not set in stone for you, and some of those encounter and daily and utility abilities those classes get might be a better match than a paragon path that's more designed in tune with the class features of that particular class.
Again, flexibility in design costs you the rigid number of powers you'd get otherwise. This makes it so that one choice is not automaticly better than the other for all builds. This is good design.
Power: You can replace a power with another
power of the same type (at-will attack power, encounter
attack power, daily attack power, or utility power),
of the same level or lower, and from the same class.
And from the page before it:
At 13th, 17th, 23rd, and 27th levels, you can
replace any encounter attack power you know from
your class with a new one of your new level (or an
encounter attack power of a lower level, if you choose).
The first one lets us power-swap through retraining the powers gotten from multiclass feats, provided the new power is from the same class as the old. Alright. Good to know. It doesn't care if that power is from multi-class feats or from the Half-Elf's dilettante ability (so you can retrain that, so long as you don't change classes).
The Second point however hinges on one simple question.... if you take multiclass feats, or even the multiclass paragon path, or -even- a paragon path of the multiclass.... does this allow you to swap using your power swap at levels 13, 17, 23, or 27 (for encounter powers)?
A character who has taken a class-specific multiclass
feat counts as a member of that class for the purpose of
meeting prerequisites for taking other feats and qualifying
for paragon paths.
So then.... what does this mean? Well, it means that as it stands, you can't use multiclassing to give you the right to swap powers out at levels 13, 15, 17, 19, 23, 25, 27, or 29. All a multiclass feat allows you to do is use that feat to substitute for the class as a prerequisite for paragon paths and for feats. That's all.
'But, Dracosuave, with the awesome badmusic referencing name, how do I get high level abilities with these feats?'
Simple.
Any time you gain a level, you can alter that
decision. Effectively, pretend you’re choosing the
power-swap feat for the first time at the new level
you’ve just gained. You gain back the power that you
gave up originally from your primary class, lose the
power that you chose from your second class, and
make the trade again. You give up a different power
from your primary class and replace it with a new
power of the same level from your second class.
This is -seperate- from the retraining option. This allows you to update your second-class powers, and is the only way to do so. This will not permit you to update your paragon path powers, as those are set in stone, and not affected by your multiclass feats.
However, unlike with a paragon path, you don't have to make the choices for what those extra abilities are until you gain those levels. They are not set in stone for you, and some of those encounter and daily and utility abilities those classes get might be a better match than a paragon path that's more designed in tune with the class features of that particular class.
Again, flexibility in design costs you the rigid number of powers you'd get otherwise. This makes it so that one choice is not automaticly better than the other for all builds. This is good design.
DracoSuave
First Post
Assuming of course, that the abilities the regular path gives are equal to or superior to the second class options.
Example: Blood Mage.
The 11 encounter is Blood Pulse, 2d6 + Int and 1d6 for each square all the targets leave.
Not bad, actually.
Compare it to Fire Burst, Spectral Ram, Winter's Wrath, and Lightning Bolt, however, and it becomes a much more interesting comparison.
Is it strictly better? I wouldn't say so, altho it IS a good controlling spell.
Soul Burn Daily Utility 12
Is Soul Burn strictly better than Arcane Gate, Blur, Mirror Image, or Resistance?
Is Destructive Salutation strictly better than Acid Wave, Cloudkill, Disintegrate, or Evard's Black Tentacles?
These are questions you have to ask as relevant to your character, and for some builds might make more sense to ask than others.
If you've gone into Warlock, for example, the Paragon Path abilities are all but useless to you, seeing as you lack the Warlock's Curse to make them work. You're not missing much by forgoing the features that buff up a class feature you don't have.
[In the specific case of Life-Stealer, you, in fact, can only use the action point altering feature, and the other features and powers (Collect Life Spark, Sustain Life Spark, Soul Scorch, Life Spark Summons, and Soul Theft) are completely unavailable. Star and Fey pact aren't -as- bad, but the Class Features are still Curse-based, and the Utility Abilities as well]
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