Paragons of Fey Valor

[Kobold Boots]

It was the whole "well, I have the answers and explanations to these things, but all I wanted to do was tell you I have all these answers, not talk about them" that honestly comes across as BS. Obviously, one need not discuss anything one does not wish to. You just come across as self-important. I don't know what other goal there would be to saying you have an answer to something that you won't share. lol.

Naturally, you may have exceeded us all, and your original post could be taken as "wow I have this exciting solution to all this but I can't tell". The thing is I've read through and sometimes even played with or playtested a lot of different stuff, and written plenty of rules myself too. It is easy to THINK you have a brilliant approach, but the honest truth is most of the time the rest of the world won't be as impressed by it. Maybe its dismissive, but without actually being able to see something to criticize the safe assumption is that someone making such claims is falling short. There's a reason games are a bunch of trade-offs and compromises and never exactly do even what they set out to do (let alone what the audience actually wanted). It is REALLY hard to do right. Climb Mt Everest, then everyone can see you can do it. Saying you can? Meh, not without a track record.

You make good points. Fair enough. My apologies for not rationalizing the end result of my post while typing it.

Or maybe you're making my point for me, and this outcome is far better than 12 pages of defending myself otherwise

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, and I'm sure I came off as highly dismissive too. Don't be deterred by anyone saying "bah! You're probably wrong!". Especially in game design where 'right' and 'wrong' are so utterly subjective in most cases.

Anyway, I do suspect any of the more complex RPGs will always end up with better and worse options. IMHO what you aim for is more thematic cohesiveness and hopefully each option will be useful to someone and at best the superior option for there particular purpose. 4e certainly has many options that are never all that useful mechanically, and quite a few that aren't even all that useful even purely from the standpoint of achieving a certain concept. Many have also been supplanted by other ways to do things and are just cruft at this point, like a goodly number of feats. Games generally run into that sort of 'senescence" over time.

 

[Larrin]

Renewed my DDI with Christmas money, and this article stood out as perfectly done to my tastes. They stay true to the fey, make for a reasonable paragon path, and have flavor, fun, and room to expand a story within. Thanks, Mister Klaus.

 

[Marshall]

I would prefer if they keep writing things for the average player. My experience is similar to you. Most of the players end up choosing options based on their perception of what is interesting, and "cool". Not necesarily the option that is on the mechanical bleeding edge.

I'd much prefer that the "cool" options also be the mechanically effective options.

Good mechanics will lead to good fluff being created for them. Whether by a designer or by Joe Gamer making up his character backstory.
Bad mechanics render good fluff irrelevant. Eventually, no matter how good the story is, players pick up on just how much their character is being dragged down by the poor design work. The best good fluff can hope for is to be reassigned to a good mechanical base.

I'd rather write flavorful PPs that are strictly "black" (to use a CharOp parlance) than a boring PP filled with "sky blue" powers.

Why dont you aim for Blue(generically effective)? That way if you fall a little short you end up with black instead of the usual purple(ONLY niche use) or Red(waste of space)? Its a lot easier to use the fluffy bits of a PP if the powers are actually useful more than 1 in 20 encounters, occasionally hit or are not obviously inferior to other PPs with similar abilities....

 

[Klaus]

I'd much prefer that the "cool" options also be the mechanically effective options.

Good mechanics will lead to good fluff being created for them. Whether by a designer or by Joe Gamer making up his character backstory.
Bad mechanics render good fluff irrelevant. Eventually, no matter how good the story is, players pick up on just how much their character is being dragged down by the poor design work. The best good fluff can hope for is to be reassigned to a good mechanical base.




Why dont you aim for Blue(generically effective)? That way if you fall a little short you end up with black instead of the usual purple(ONLY niche use) or Red(waste of space)? Its a lot easier to use the fluffy bits of a PP if the powers are actually useful more than 1 in 20 encounters, occasionally hit or are not obviously inferior to other PPs with similar abilities....

The difference between "blue", "black" and "purple" are more in the eye of the beholder. Some value damage more than survivability, mobility, noncombat applications or versatility.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The difference between "blue", "black" and "purple" are more in the eye of the beholder. Some value damage more than survivability, mobility, noncombat applications or versatility.

Beyond that most choice points in the game present you with a whole variety of options that are better or worse depending on other choices you already made. There are some cases where there's some 'gold' choice like TS that you basically can't top with anything, but that's really the exception. For any case where you're basically building your character to a concept even if you want to pick the best choices what is good for your build is likely not the best for someone else's.

 

[Gryph]

Question when using the numerical scale of that chart. Doesn't that leave only a fixed number of variables and lead to cookie-cutter outcomes?

if the 55% hit rate you cite is correct, why not roll percentile every time you attack. If you get 55 or below, you hit.

indeed, or use the saving throw mechanic for attacks.

 

[Marshall]

Beyond that most choice points in the game present you with a whole variety of options that are better or worse depending on other choices you already made. There are some cases where there's some 'gold' choice like TS that you basically can't top with anything, but that's really the exception. For any case where you're basically building your character to a concept even if you want to pick the best choices what is good for your build is likely not the best for someone else's.

Absolutely false and this logic is where truly red and deep purple powers come from. Powers should ALWAYS be targeted to be useful for everyone most of the time and EXTRA useful in niche situations or for certain builds. Powers that have obscure triggers, extremely situational targets or major portions of the effects built into the build riders are no-gos. Thats before powers that are just mechanically inept or "different fluff-but-worse mechanics" than existing powers. All of which we are seeing a LOT of in recent articles. Take for example the egregious Flight power in the Rake, its already been established that in multiple PrCs that a Flight speed is appropriate for 16th level PrC features and instead we get encounter Pixie level flight. Now we have a "Peter Pan" PrC, so that design space is closed AND THE MECHANICS ARE TERRIBLE so any PC that takes it isnt going to be a serious contributor to the party or, even worse, the DM is going to have to make allowances for the anchor on the partys capability.

 

[Jhaelen]

if the 55% hit rate you cite is correct, why not roll percentile every time you attack. If you get 55 or below, you hit.

In a way we do: a d20 is percentile dice in disguise - using 5% increments.

I agree, though, that not every attack at every level in every encounter should end up having a 55% chance to hit. Now, _that_ would be boring!

 

[Klaus]

Take for example the egregious Flight power in the Rake, its already been established that in multiple PrCs that a Flight speed is appropriate for 16th level PrC features and instead we get encounter Pixie level flight.

Not true.

The most commonly PP referred in this case is Favored Soul, which does offer a fly speed of 6... if you're in light or no armor.

Incandescent Champion, Unveiled Visage, Scourge of Io, Angelic Avenger, among others, offer flight as a Daily 20 effect (the Champion also offers flight as part of a charge). Building Thunder also offers a Daily 20 flight, but you must land at the end of the flight. Storm Disciple offers Encounter 16 flight that last until the end of the encounter or until you're hit. Astral Ascendant offers a Daily 12 fly speed. A few others offer an Encounter 12 one-round flight.

The closest is Scion of Arkhosia, which grants an overland fly speed at level 16, and an At-Will "fly squares equal to speed and land" ability at level 12.

So the Soaring Rake *is* the class that offers the most flight: spend action point to gain a fly speed until EONT, encounter fly-by attack power, at-will "fly your speed" power and daily "fly speed for you and allies" (not to mention a damage bonus against nonflyers and clumst flyers). All without restriction. Some have posited it as a "Peter Pan" path, but you can have a Chaladin in full plate or an Infernal Hexblade in chainmail flying about.