D&D 5E Party flight at 5th? Druid summoned giant vultures

It depends on the groups preferences, obviously. There is no universal "fun of the group as a whole."

But as a secondary follow-up for you...


Let me ask this, then: what is the benefit to game play and the fun of the group as a whole of magic missle not insta-killing dragons?

The differences between our questions is mine was asked in good faith.
 

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Let me ask this, then: what is the benefit to game play and the fun of the group as a whole of magic missle not insta-killing dragons?

OH gee, it couldn't be that one removes the challenge, thus rendering the encounter boring. The other is Conjure X.
 

OH gee, it couldn't be that one removes the challenge, thus rendering the encounter boring. The other is Conjure X.
And therein is the trap in the question asked.. any reference to balance or challenge can be attacked as "see, it's to limit player character power, make it easier for gm to rein them in... in short reduce player agency. A stronger gm can still challenge the players even with... insert thing not strictly forbidden."

Of course for games where thing like "one 3rd level spell let's one guy fly for 10m, one summons a riding horse for an hour (albeit non concentration) but another as just one of its many myriad possibilities allows you to conjure two giant vultures on demand (if you follow the rule that everything that isn't allowed must be explicitly defined in the rule every time) for an hour" matters they might see inventing "player chooses any animal on demand within the CR provided" as basically very much turning this spell from a pretty balanced "call minion spell yo a "swiss druid mega-wonder tool" as a tad overbslanced too.

As the OP asked about and found his answer he can use before player agencies came calling

Sigh.
 


Uh... What?

Once you remove how they function in combat, there's like... three different possibilities. Something that flies. Something that swims. None of the above.

Why are you removing the many possible combat applications for "creature on demand"? Are they so trivial as to be just not even worth mentioning alongside the non-combat stuff?

As for "like... three different possibilities" holy cow... your games are way different than mine.

The big draw for "dial-a-feature" utility includes the vast array of various animal abilities you may need for your group...
Something with darkvision
something with blindsight
something with tunneling/burrow
something with advantage on checks involving smell for tracking.
something with high strength and tons of carry capacity

thats just a few off the top of my "swiss-army-wonder-varmint" head - in addition to that whole you know combat option thing.

I get why druids would want it to be their go-to for all , just like druids would love to have an absolute memory of every varmints ever seen for wild shape instead of limits too. that whole buffet line of "tool-on-demand" is very tempting. Nevermind its out of whack for a third level spell when compared to similar spells that do a small fraction of it.

its cases like this where "player agency" gets really degraded IMO as it gets turned from "aggressively countering player's power to control their character and determine or influece direction and results" by smooshing into it "Gm limit's character's power to match the other benchmarks".

But hey, i am sure a "good enough GM" can roll with the player agency of the dragon-slayer darts at 1st level too and not infringe on their player's agency.
 

Why are you removing the many possible combat applications for "creature on demand"? Are they so trivial as to be just not even worth mentioning alongside the non-combat stuff?
Yes? That's the entire point of the challenge system.

Something with darkvision
something with blindsight
Which don't matter if they can't communicate it to you.
something with tunneling/burrow
Which doesn't count unless it has tunnelling, but otherwise okay, 4 options.
something with advantage on checks involving smell for tracking.
When has that ever been used?
something with high strength and tons of carry capacity
That also despawns after a while, when you could just hire hirelings.

But hey, i am sure a "good enough GM" can roll with the player agency of the dragon-slayer darts at 1st level too and not infringe on their player's agency.
But not to not resort disjointed arguments, it seems.
 

Yes? That's the entire point of the challenge system.

Which don't matter if they can't communicate it to you.
Which doesn't count unless it has tunnelling, but otherwise okay, 4 options.
When has that ever been used?
That also despawns after a while, when you could just hire hirelings.

But not to not resort disjointed arguments, it seems.
If these are more than just "throw ins to posture for argument" and are actual representations of how these things are valued in your games, we have very radically different games indeed.

Enjoy.
 

Of course for games where thing like "one 3rd level spell let's one guy fly for 10m, one summons a riding horse for an hour (albeit non concentration) but another as just one of its many myriad possibilities allows you to conjure two giant vultures on demand (if you follow the rule that everything that isn't allowed must be explicitly defined in the rule every time) for an hour" matters they might see inventing "player chooses any animal on demand within the CR provided" as basically very much turning this spell from a pretty balanced "call minion spell yo a "swiss druid mega-wonder tool" as a tad overbslanced too.

I am not sure it presents a balance problem if you treat all the conjure spells the same. It's true druids get their first conjure as a 3rd level spell rather than a 4th like the wizard does, but beats are also significantly less versatile than, say, an elemental type creatures. But I see your point if you are inclined to not have PCs have access to broadly applicable magical solutions. In that case, i think the fair thing to do is definitely randomly roll the creatures from a predefined list.

Part of "player agency" (which you seem to dislike) is having meaningful choices. Meaningful choices require information. If the conjuror can't know for certain what sorts of creatures are going to appear, then they should at least know what the range of possibility is. I mean, by your interpretation of the spell, a druid could cast conjure animals in a desert and the DM can have a shark appear. Of course a DM would not likely do that, but it is among the broad list of possibilities, which means that there's uncertainty in the casting, which means the player has less agency. Similarly, though, I can see the problem of the ever expanding repertoire. Every creature of the appropriate type statted up in a source approved for the campaign becomes another option for the conjuror, and that is a problem of the opposite sort. It is actually a bit of a conundrum.
 

It's clever, as it's a good use of a spell usually used for combat. It's heroic, as heroes riding giant vultures to bypass evil threats is awesome. I'd totally allow it and not worry about missing those ground encounters.
 

My guys “liberated” a couple of vultures and hippogriffs from Feathergale spire and had quite a few aerial adventures. They soon found an important weakness of these animals…22hps. The paladin eventually took mounted combatant feat to protect his mount. I also penalized movement etc due to encumbrance.

I don’t allow druids to choose their animals when summoning but ask for what they prefer and take that into account when rolling to see what turns up. A couple of times they have received flying mounts.

However, I also encourage creative thinking and solutions to the problems I pose during the game. If they want to use summoned flying creatures to cross the chasm. I might jokingly say you Ba#tards you’ve ruined my adventure! Then roll with it and make it up as we go. The script in D&D is not preordained, if they ignore my planned encounters I’ll use them elsewhere but I am not going to deny them a creative solution just cos I didn’t think of it in my planning stage.

Running ToA my guys used flying mounts to cross the jungle, it saved time but I didn’t overrule them saying the adventure says you must do this. It simply changed things a bit.

Their job is to surprise me, my job is to make them think they haven’t.

Stormdale
 

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