Party Nearly wipes. Did I handle this right?

[rethgryn]

I just got done with running the latest session of my DnD 4E game and it was a doozy. (Yeah, I like the new edition, DEAL WITH IT!) We had two PC fatalities, with one of the players accusing me of being a killer GM.

Let me give some background. The campaign is set in my own spin on the Points of Light setting with some added steampunk elements and an anything goes policy for races and classes which has worked well so far. For the latest adventure, I've been using a published module from Dungeon set in Ebberon which I modified the back story of to fit my world.

The premise of this adventure was that they were sent to secure and reactivate a lost arcane factory from a great war a hundred years prior by the heir to the empire of Nerath. Problem is, someone else had this same idea. An Eladrin artificer named Jelia hired some mercenaries to secure the facility for her Eladrin kingdom, in secret so she could take all the credit for herself. Problem for her was that her mercenaries turned on her and the facility awoke a living construct dragon named Calamachia, that used her own mercenaries to coerce this elf into serving her through blackmail and threats of violence.

So, the players have fought their way through this dungeon, have heard about this whole situation a couple sessions ago from Jelia's lover who they freed. They get to the bottom level and go into the room where Jelia is working. That is where this session begins. As I usually do, at the begining, I remind the players of the plot points to try to clear ambiguity that they may have that their characters don't. We have a new person who joined last session, a halfling ranger who I will call "Dave." We have a player who couldn't make it, who we'll call her "Sarah," an Eladrin Warlord is being played by another new person. We have a player who is the party Rogue, who interprets this as being the party thief who likes to pick pocket peasants, that we'll call "Bob." And one other player who is a Goliath Warden who we'll call "Newt." We don't have a "Brian," thankfully.

The players enter the storeroom where Jelia is being coerced into working with her homoculii body guards. The module has her as initially distrustful of the PCs and skeptical if going against the dragon is a good idea consider all of the violence that will come to her and her family if she betrays her. Not to mention that hiring mercenaries to secure the facility for personal gain could get her in trouble. So the module has a skill challenge, a relatively easy one to convince her side with the PCs. If they fail, or if the PCs are violent, she will become hostile, doing her duty of stopping intruders.

I have the players roll initiative. The substitute player for the warlord does what I would consider to be the natural thing and starts trying to make a diplomacy check, telling this woman that she is in good hands. Bob and Dave, however, out of character reasons that he will get more XP for killing Jelia. I tried to explain the situation. Dave, who joined the game last session, whose entering the party in the middle of the dungeon was justified by him being a member of Jelia's party before her mercenaries turned on him and her justified his hostility with the excuse that his character believed he was double crossed by Jelia. I explained that this was not the case and he would know that and told them mechanically, skill challenges are worth xp as well so this wouldn't hold up as a good strategy even if you were meta-gaming.

Bob and Dave decided to sneak attack her servants anyway, starting combat. The Warlord, tries use her diplomacy skill to get the parties to stop fighting, which worked to calm her down and Bob begrugingly went along with it. Dave however decided, it! I want XP! and sucker punched her when she lowered her guard. A few rounds of combat later with the Warlord making feeble and ineffective attempts to convince them to stop fighting and Jelia, weakened, is able to get out the door and run for the Dragon's chamber, declaring the "heroes" to be a bunch of thugs and she is better off working for the Dragon.

In all fairness, I think I gave them chances to gain an ally and make the final boss fight much easier, or at least fair but at the same time, being a sociopath in character and refusing to gain a useful ally in favor of using the non-hostile NPC as target practice to be looted had consequences. After a rest, they enter the forge chamber where the dragon, a level 9 solo, now has Jelia with her to help in the boss fight. Jelia, would have helped the party or at least not helped the dragon if the party had even tried the skill challenge as I had modified it, but now this seventh level party had to fight the higher level solo boss AND Jelia, an elite controller with both of them expecting the party.

The battle does not go well. The party is forced to retreat from the dungeon, failing the mission. Bob and Newt are both killed with Bob accusing me of being a killer GM because the boss fight was probably well over the XP budget. Now I am not a grognard and I generally follow the philosophy that the encounters change to reflect the parties abilites rather than being something static that could be well above or well bellow the parties abilites. At the same time though, if there is no possibility of losing due to bad team work and bad decisions that would logically lead to encounters becoming harder, it makes winning a little meaningless.

Still, Bob, who has for the most part been a good player in other sessions, this bad session not being an example of that, left very mad and didn't have much fun. I feel that perhaps I missed the ultimate objective of running a game. I allowed him to get a true resurrection from the emperor who he was working for since he was attached to the character but he was still upset about not having his magic items and said that losing them meant that the game was not worth coming back too. I have already lost three players due to one of them joining the military real life and with her gone her little brother and boyfriend stopped coming and I would really rather not lose people who have been in the game since the beginning.

Do you think I handled this session appropriately? Was I too hard on the players? Was negatively reinforcing poor judgment worth potentially alienating Bob?

 

[Agamon]

You did fine. When players make bad decisions, that's their right, but it often leads to bad consequences. My players know that, and they never blame me when they know they were playing stupid.

Hopefully your players learn from their mistake, unlike their namesakes (KoDT is a fun read, but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be playing this game with players like that).

The Bob thing, though, you might want to talk with him about how it turned out. As in all editions of D&D, losing your stuff is worse than dying. Instead of having a new useful PC that will be fun and able to help, you have a far less useful, not fun one. You might need to get together with him and figure something out that both of you can agree to.

 

[im_robertb]

My thoughts:

-If XP motivating the players is a problem, remove it. I'm planning a game that meets once per week for 4 hours each session. I do not give out or track XP. Instead, the party levels up once every 3 sessions.
-I think you have one player who's into the RP, sane-acting side of things, and 2 players who don't come to play an RPG, they come to play a tactical boardgame. So, what's the solution? Consider sitting them down and discussing what they and you want out of the game. There's nothing wrong with playing D&D as a no-roleplay, cooperative tactical boardgame, so long as that's what everyone wants to do.
-A possible compromise would be to have them agree to RP one skill challenge per session (and let it be dice-intensive for the troublesome players), and then let them slash their way through the rest.
-The encounter was a level 9 solo + Jelia, the level 7(?) elite? Keep in mind that a level 9 solo is a hard encounter for five level 7 characters, and you only had 3. You should probably shy away from using higher-level solos with a smaller group. Also keep in mind (as someone said on these forums) that it's not the DM's job to have the monsters do the smart thing, all stand in the same room, and kill the PCs when they come; it's the DM's job to come up with believable reasons why they don't.

Also:
-Losing all your magic items, even as a level 7 character, significantly hampers your character's effectiveness. A level 7 character with no magic items vs. a normally equipped level 7 character will probably have -2 to attack rolls, damage, and defenses, in addition to having no magic item daily powers for extra oomph when needed.

 

[fireinthedust]

Was negatively reinforcing poor judgment worth potentially alienating Bob?

You didn't negatively reinforce poor judgement. You positively punished it.

Reinforcers mean that they encourage the repetition of a behavior. Positive reinforcement is giving a treat (xp, treasure, pizza). Negative reinforcement is taking away a punishing factor, alleviating some burden, but not actually giving them good stuff per se. Either way, they're likely to do more of the action that your reinforcer is linked to.

Punishers decrease the likelihood of a response. Positive punishers introduce something, like pain or the loss of a character or insults, that decrease the likelihood of doing something again. Negative Punishers take away a good thing, a reward or reinforcing factor.

Positive: add
Negative: take away
Reinforce: they do things more
Punish: less likely to do things



For the record: they were stupid, you told them they were being stupid, they got bashed.
From what you've described, I think you handled this great. You may want to consider new friends. Maybe there are other factors to why you feel bad about this, though, that you haven't mentioned, I don't know.

There could be various personal factors for Dave, who was doing something destructive, whether for attention or what have you. Maybe the plot isn't hack n slash enough for him.

HOWEVER: what were the stats on this girl? I haven't seen my PCs actually get walloped in 4e. They're not even tanks, but I rarely bloody anyone but the barbarian (who is asking for it).
Like really, I've tried.

 

[fanboy2000]

First, you handled the game session as well as you could have, given the situation. What you need now is, I believe, some advice on how to move forward.

You need to keep Bob. Losing a player means losing a potential source of entertainment and lutz. But how do you keep Bob without setting a precedent of bowing the whims of every player who thinks all encounters should be easy? Simple, make it possible for him to get every thing he want's back.

You've already got a good start with the resurrection. But now he's whining about losing magic items. You know what’s a good source of magic items? Treasures hoards. But wait, PCs need magic items to kill dragons! You already have your solution: the emperor who helped resurrect Bob. Now, the emperor doesn't have to give Bob a whole new slate of magic items, but how about this: Bob gets to pick three magic items from the emperor's personal armory to borrow? Give the other players a chance to borrow as well, just to make it fair. Throw in a condition that Bob and the other have to give the stuff back after they defeat the dragon.

Properly armed and motivated, your groups is good for another crack at the lair. I don't know that the original lair called for, but I suggest throwing in a few light encounters. Say, a few 5th or 6th level skirmishers, and maybe an encounter with only two or three level 7s. Nothing they'll want to throw a daily at, but encounters that boost moral. Also, it might be fun to have some of those monsters (especially if their humanoid) use Bob’s stuff. As the party kills the new guards in the lair, Bob can regain some of his old stuff.

Ah, but what of the dragon itself? In reality, a level 9 solo is doable for a 7th level party. I suggest that Bob go back and re-read all of the encounter design rules in the DMG. Still, it's going to be tough. My suggestion is the remove Jelia from the lair and the encounter, since she didn't seem to be part of the original encounter and was only a part of the encounter through the party's poor decisions. From an in-game perspective, Jellia probably wouldn’t want to be there for another fight anyways. And the dragon will likely want her to finish her work elsewhere, undisturbed by thugs. (And, of course, this makes a nice loose end for the PCs to follow.)

If their fully up on dailies, and they have some positive moral from the earlier encounters, I think you'll see a great improvement in the outcome. Add to that Bob's motivation to get back at the foul beast that killed him, I think you have the recipe for great combat and a happy player. Make sure that the hoard has good stuff in it, just to give Bob a sense of satisfaction that going back to kill foul beast was worth it.

Lastly, I don't think that Bob wants to play a tactical board game. If that's what he wanted to play, I suspect he'd play that instead. (tactical board games and the people who play them are at least as common as people who play D&D 4th ed) Having DMed for a number years, I suspect that what Bob wants is to always be successful. Since PCs in D&D 4e (and may other RPGs) often are successful, he's not sure what to do with failure. Particularly a partial failure where his character is alive, but doesn't have the stuff he's relied on. Also, if Bob really wanted to play a tactical boardgame, he probably wouldn't mind losing as much because the risk of losing would be greater.

 

[LostSoul]

When I play RPGs, I expect to walk away from a session now and then feeling like I got punched in the gut - due to "losing" or something unsettling happening in the game world. The key point for me is that my choices as a player matter; without the chance for that bad feeling I don't feel like I'm putting anything on the line, and that creates a less engaging situation for me.

I don't like to say "You did this right" or "You did this wrong" because I wasn't there and I don't know what actually happened. It doesn't matter what I think anyways, because I'm not part of the group.

I think you need to talk to Bob and ask him what he expects from the game. For example, does he want the possibility to have his choices result in really bad outcomes, like losing all his equipment? Or would he like something a little less harsh? How does that line up with what you and the other people in the group want?

Good luck with things, I hope it turns out well!

 

[Cerebral Paladin]

I agree with much of what's been said before. Given your description of what happened, it sounds like you made reasonable choices in response to some poor decisions by the players. Depending on how the fight went, perhaps that was another blunder-- they may have been facing a need to retreat and refusing to do so until too late, although they may not have had good opportunities.

At the same time, it sounds like you ended up with a frustrating session that wasn't a lot of fun for anyone (since it doesn't sound like you had much fun either) and a potentially campaign-crippling fall-out. I think you need to have an out of game conversation about expectations and so forth. Is this about a single bad session? Is Dave a problem player who does things to create problems for the group or to be wild, and if so, how do you address that in a way that makes everyone happy? What do your players think about how to deal with situations when encounters go badly?

It's also likely that an opportunity for the PCs to get revenge on the dragon (and recover their old stuff plus some new phat lewt) will make everyone feel better.

 

[MrMyth]

I think you handled things fine - I do agree with others that it would be worthwhile to sit down with the players, discuss things, explain your reasoning, and get a sense from what they want from the game.

The one issue I see is that, even outside of Jelia joining the dragon, a level 9 Solo is basically the equivalent of a Level 12 Encounter for 3 PCs, which is going to be an absolutely brutal encounter to begin with. You were starting out with a fight that was already beyond being a 'hard encounter', and so might have been an issue even without the addition of Jelia. I would advise taking a careful look at the xp charts (Pages 56-57 of the DMG) and making sure you adjust encounters for the party size, especially in a published adventure. Normal fights can end up extra tough, and hard fights (like this one) can become unwinnable.

 

[fanboy2000]

The one issue I see is that, even outside of Jelia joining the dragon, a level 9 Solo is basically the equivalent of a Level 12 Encounter for 3 PCs, which is going to be an absolutely brutal encounter to begin with. You were starting out with a fight that was already beyond being a 'hard encounter', and so might have been an issue even without the addition of Jelia. I would advise taking a careful look at the xp charts (Pages 56-57 of the DMG) and making sure you adjust encounters for the party size, especially in a published adventure. Normal fights can end up extra tough, and hard fights (like this one) can become unwinnable.

I count 5 PCs:

1. "Dave," a new players who's a halfling ranger
2. "Sarah,"a player who couldn't make it, who's an Eladrin Warlord
3. Another new player
4. "Bob," the party Rogue, who interprets this as being the party thief who likes to pick pocket peasants.
5. And "Newt," who's a Goliath Warden

Sarah's Eladrin Warlord (great combo!) was played by "Another New Player." So 4 players were present, and there were 5 PCs. 1 solo = 5 monsters of the same level. According to the DMG 1, a hard encounter is between level n + 2 and level n + 4. So, the dragon by itself is hard, but doable.

Generally speaking, I don't spend the XP budget. I eyeball it based on the number of PCs. Standard Monsters = 1, Elites = 2, Solos = 5, and minions = 1/4. Easy encounters are made with monsters of either a lower level than the party, or fewer monsters than PCs. 1 dragon + 1 elite = 7 monsters! That's what made the combat so hard the first time.

If Jelia was level 7, it's possible that the combat was winnable, but not without significant resource depletion. Winning that kind of combat requires excellent teamwork and a party that has most of it's resources. (i.e. dalies and healing surges)

If Jellia was level 9, like the dragon, the action points each foe spends in the first two round will likely drop a PC below bloodied with no significant drop in the monster's resources. Things rapidly go downhill from there and the best way to handle combat is to start slapping status conditions on the bad guys in hopes of forcing them to adopt a sub-par strategy. One or more PCs will die in such a situation, reducing overall damage output. The only kind of party that can take this kind of punishment is one of multiple strikers and defenders. (Strikers for damage output, defenders for damage soaking.)

 

[swiftgoose]

very tough

Your party was in for quite a fight. Dragons, as in 3.5, are on the tough end of their level, and it looks like you had a couple of inexperienced players. That said, the dragon itself probably could have killed one of the party by itself. Combining an elite controller really boosts the power scale on a monster like this. It's not simple addition of Jelia + Dragon because Jelia's control powers would enhance the dragon's effectiveness. Instead, its a power increase of Jelia X Dragon.

Nasty.

I would apologize for a bad session wholeheartedly, but explain it was unforseen as you expected the party to not attack Jelia just to get XP. I would give them the option of a do-over with the levels more balanced, or of pretending the "dead" were merely captured and allowing a rescue mission.

I would also be more careful of expecting characters to do what you expect!