Party Too Strong

[Yair]

My current party is too strong, and I'm considering what rules to change to make the game challenging again. I'm running a pre-written adventure and would like to stick to it, so I don't want to change the opponents to match their strength - I want to lower their power with as little changes and retrofitting as possible.

The characters are powerful in several ways:
1) We are using a very generous point-buy system to purchase Abiltiy Scores.
2) We are allowing nearly all splatbook additions. The two chief offenders here seem to be spells from the Spell Compendium (dragon breath, orb of force, true strike IIRC their names), and dual-wand wielding plus a magic item that allows to apply metamagic feats to wands (I think from Complete Arcane).
3) We are using Action Points, although limited to adding +1d6 (instead of higher dice at higher levels).

The party is currently at level 10, and I count them as being at level 11 but they are still far too powerful for their level.

I think the addition of spltabook content is the real culprit, multiplying the PC's power. The double-wand wielder can unleash more than 32d6 damage in a single round. However, nerfing this will undermine his character concept greatly. A nerf that leaves him viable might be welcomed...

The main problem there is a particular character that uses the Metamagic Wandgrip (Complete Mage) and the Double Wand Wielder (Complete Arcane). So instead of firing, say, a fireball doing 10d6 damage, he is capable of firing two wands of Empowered fireball plus another Quickened (not-Empowered) fireball, for a total of 40d6 of damage in a single round. Now, money prevents him from doing that high - but he still gets to around 32d6 per round...

The other problem is action points. The massive amount of action points (about 10) means that they become a common, trivial resource, greatly expanding the PC's power. They practically mean the PCs have a good chance of making any roll they miss by 3, and with a bit of luck even a greater miss.

So, I'm fishing for ideas. Any advice welcome.

 

[Engilbrand]

Step 1:
What's the adventure? I'm sure you'll find someone on here who has run it before or is familiar enough with it to understand your problem.
Step 2:
Are there specific points in the adventure that have been problems, or is it just general character problems?
Step 3:
What exactly are the players playing? Races, classes and feats are all needed. I'm quite certain that 32d6 from dual wand wielding is not possible by level 10. There may be some misinterpretations that have happened that we can help you with.

 

[theskyfullofdust]

You could get rid of Action Points completely without too much fuss. That would help a bit.

You could throw in some monsters resistant to the wands.

You could adpot a more role-play approach, cutting down on the instances when the PCs wade in with wands blaxzing.

Or, you could simply boost their EL and match encounters to it, make it more even.

But, like Engilbrand says, some more detail of which adventure it is, races etc might help.

 

[Yair]

Step 1:
What's the adventure? I'm sure you'll find someone on here who has run it before or is familiar enough with it to understand your problem.
Step 2:
Are there specific points in the adventure that have been problems, or is it just general character problems?
Step 3:
What exactly are the players playing? Races, classes and feats are all needed. I'm quite certain that 32d6 from dual wand wielding is not possible by level 10. There may be some misinterpretations that have happened that we can help you with.

1) We are playing through the Shackled City Adventure Path, currently on the plane of Occipatus undergoing the Test of the Smoking Eye.

2) While the characters are a bit optimized to battle demons, which are common on this plane, the problem is with their general power level. It is a large party, and hasn't really been challenged in a long time.

3) Well.... there are six characters:

Nor is the biggest problem. He is a level 10 grey elf wizard (conjurer)/guildmage. He has the Double Wand Wielder feat (Complete Arcane) that allows him to activate two wands as a full round action, double the charges for the secondary wand. He also has the Metamagic Wandgrip magic item (Complete Mage), which allows him to apply a metamagic feat he knows to a wand 3/day. He also has several metamagic feats, including Energy Substitution (so monster vulnerability really is crazy...), Quicken Spell, and Empower Spell. He also has several wands, of his own manufacture. Putting out the massive damage is doable once per day: he spends a full-round action to activate both wands, applying Empower to one with the Wandgrip, and then applying the Quicken metamagic through the Wandgrip for more damage. That leaves him with only 1 daily use of his wandgrip. Normally, he uses less power - either casting spells normally, or applying the wandgrip-wand or two wands if things require more firepower. The short of it is that nothing can really withstand his firepower for two rounds.

A major contributer to their success is their scout, It. He is the craziest character, a "Male Elan Rogue 2 Ardent 4 Elocater 3 Shadowdancer 1" as his character sheet says. He has a ring of blink, and powers, skill tricks, and magic items related to being a scout. The result is that he has Listen +7, Spot +17, Darkvision 60 feet, Low light vision, Elf sight, Hide
+36, Move silently +13, Search +24, Tumble +13, Hide in Plain Sight, and constantly blinks so can pass through walls etc. He also always carries the psychic warrior's psicrystal with him so can communicate with the party from a distance. He is practically undetectable, making him an excellent scout - so the party almost always has the intel on its adversaries and is only rarely surprised.

The other major artillery piece is the sorceress, Cordelia. She is just a level 10 sorceress, with sub-optimal spells really. Nothing too powerful here. She does have a Lesser Empower rod, and she does occasionaly use a spell from Spell Compendium that is too powerful - I think it's called Dragon's Breath or something like that, it is essentially a save-or-die spell that is a few spell levels too low.

Another fairly effective artillery member is Lucas the ranger 5/order of the bow initiate 5. Fairly standard fair there, just an effective archer - wielding a +1 flaming mighty (+2) longbow, and feats such as Precise Shot and Rapid Shot. He can fire three arrows as a full round action, something like +14/+14/+9 (1d8+4+1d6 fire); he always manages to do a fair amount of damage.

Then there is the psychic warrior, Big Mac. He is a a level 10 dwarf psychic warrior, with powers that include Expansion, Dissolving Weapon, and Hustle. Feats include Psycrystal Containment and Psionic Meditation, as well as Deep Impact and Psionic Weapon. He carries a +3 shield, +3 full plate, slippers and spider climbing, and +1 adamantine outsider(evil) bane dwarven waraxe (plus a small arsenal of other axes). I think he's pretty reasonable - he can dish out plenty of damage as a Huge dwarf, can barely be hit with all his armor gear, and has lots of hit points - but I regularly punch him when he faces high-CR opponents, and his hp or damage output aren't that high.

Finally, there is the level 10 human cleric/inquisitor, Joseph. Really he's underpowered if anything, and I don't see him as a problem there at all.

They are also accompanied in the adventure by a level 11 sorcerer, Kaurophon. His main weapon is a cone of cold (not empowered or anything); not a game-breaking character there.

Edit: The problem lies with their overall power level, not just Nor's crazy shticks. For example, in the last session a dragon assualted them. The party let him come, having prepared with energy-abosrption (acid resistance) magic. The dragon breathed on Nor - which only scratched him, due to his resistance, so Nor fired back, and the dragon the grappled the wizard. Tense moement, right? Well, the dwarf approached, turned Huge, and use Action Points to stop the dragon from flying away while pounding him in. And the wizard used an Action Point to dimesnion door away (by boosting his concentration check). Then the sorceress (Cordelia) breathed on the dragon, making him sleep, and the encounter was over. The encounter was made easier due to their action points here, and due to their massive combined fire-power and Cordelia's spell the dragon never really had a chance.

 

[Li Shenron]

Instead of taking things away from the PCs, which is frustrating in the middle of a campaign, just make the adventures harder. For example, double the number of creatures in each fight (if doubling is too much, start with +50%).

You can think of limitations for character creation when they create new characters.

 

[the Jester]

Well, remember that the standard encounter in 3e assumes a party of four; if you have six, you need to increase the number of opponents of the same CR to have the same effective difficulty for the party.

Regarding the dragon breath spell: I assume it's the sleep gas that is a problem? You might try using a few more creatures immune to sleep (constructs, undead, oozes, etc). Even though it doesn't spell it out, I would rule that the sleep effect is mind-affecting.

Regarding the dual wand wielder, a creature with decent fire resistance (in the 20 range) would prolly do okay against him- it would still take some damage, so he wouldn't be useless, but each of the fireballs would be lessened, and the monster would have a lot more durability. SR might be pretty worthwhile here, too; with the right SR you would allow him to keep doing damage to the monster without simply overwhelming it.

 

[Quartz]

With regard to the wand wielder, remember that wands are limited to low-level spells: one of the Globes of Invulnerability will really ruin his day. Equally Dimensional Anchor will nerf your blinker. But you shouldn't specifically target them like this, at least not initially: if an intelligent enemy escapes, then other enemies who come into contact with him may learn. Be sure to drop a clue or two about this so players don't get aggrieved.

SCAP spoilers ahead!

Spoiler

Kaurophon in particular should be noting all this for when he betrays them

Otherwise, how often are you hitting them from the rear?

 

[Nifft]

As the others have said, 6 PCs is +50% the PCs, so give at least +50% more monsters per encounter. If they're exceptionally strong, consider +100% more monsters.

- - -

In D&D, first attacks are often a creature's strongest attacks. Thus, it's a valid strategy to try to waste these attacks with deception -- illusions, for example, or investing resources in magic or "Counter" maneuvers countering a single attack.

This strategy also allows the opponent to see the party's attack options from a position of relative safety. If an enemy knows there are intruders coming, it should set up such a deception.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Aegir]

Most of the ideas already given are stuff I'd have given, tho' I'll add a couple things:

1) definitely treat this group as more than just +1 APL. With 6 PCs and very favorable build rules, they're prolly more like +2, or maybe even +3. That said, be careful with tossing higher CR critters; just send more at them.

2) Demons are well known for using hordes of mooks to soften up their prey before moving in, so if you're coming up on a battle with a few high-level demons, maybe toss some lower level critters at them, and while they're cutting into them, move in with the biggies. It'll give the big ones a round or so to unleash on the group. Also remember that demons won't care one lick about their lackies, so, for example, a demon spellcaster would be more than willing to dump AoEs on the group, even if it kills their mooks.

This tactic is particularly useful if the mooks are just barely too weak to be seen as a real threat. When the PCs fearlessly wade in, the bigger demons can drop debuff powers/abilities on them, and suddenly they're in the middle of a wave of much more deadly mooks.

On a specific note... Jovocs are endless fun as fodder.

 

[evilbob]

Quick note: dragons are immune to magic sleep effects. Not sure if that spell somehow trumps this, but that's worth mentioning.

At least one person has said this so far, but I will second it: don't take things away. Make the game more challenging to meet the level of the party. You clearly have a party that can handle ECLs of 12 without much trouble. Your best bet is to ramp up the ECL to 13 or 14 a time or two, AND be sure you are throwing more than two encounters at them daily. If your 1/day wand-wielder is only fighting once per day, then of course that power will dominate. But if he's fighting 5 or 6 times a day, he'll quickly run out of juice and either fall back or learn to conserve.

I'd suggest just upping the number of "random encounters" the party faces, and be sure some of them are ECL 13+. And try to involve creatures with spell resistance. Adding a golem or two (magic immune) wouldn't be a bad idea, either (but don't go too far with this idea).

Although my last piece of advice is cautionary: large parties with min/maxed characters may seem invincible, but if you throw something with too high of a CR at them, they'll go down fast just like any other party. It's better to increase the challenge with MORE creatures, as opposed to STRONGER creatures.