D&D 5E (2014) Passive or Active Fighting Styles?

[Esker]

Yea, any dice mechanic is problematic because of the 2d6. Maybe change it to only one die can be maxed, total, per damage roll? That would change the average on 2d6 to 9.53.....Ok, maybe that isn't much better!

I feel like the way to address the problem that 1d12 weapons are just worse than 2d6 weapons is to lean into their swinginess, giving players an option to increase their average result and their variability. Something like:

"When you roll a total of 8 or higher on the damage dice for an attack you make with a heavy melee weapon, you can roll one additional die and add it to the result."

By making the threshold a set 8 or higher, 2d6 and 1d12 weapons have the same chance of triggering the bonus damage, but 1d12 weapons get a bigger boost, putting them slightly ahead of 2d6 weapons in average damage (9.2 vs 8.5), but both get a boost relative to GWF style as written. So if you're a two-handed weapon user who wants an offense-oriented style, you now have an incentive to use a 1d12 weapon; but if you take Defense style you are more effective with a 2d6 weapon. This style gives the smallest boost to 1d10 weapons, increasing the damage gap between polearms and other heavy weapons (making PAM a bit less of an obvious choice).

Meanwhile you could tweak GWF style by just flat out allowing you to roll one extra damage die and drop the lowest result. This is actually slightly worse for 2d6 weapons than rerolling all 1s and 2s, since you can't reroll both dice, for an average result of 8.24 instead of 8.33, and better for 1d12 weapons (it makes the average damage 8 instead of 7.3).

In both cases the gap between 2d6 and 1d12 weapons is reduced, but one style increases variability and favors the already-high-variability 1d12 weapons, whereas the other decreases variability and favors the already lower variability 2d6 weapons.

 

[TwoSix]

I feel like the way to address the problem that 1d12 weapons are just worse than 2d6 weapons is to lean into their swinginess, giving players an option to increase their average result and their variability. Something like:

"When you roll a total of 8 or higher on the damage dice for an attack you make with a heavy melee weapon, you can roll one additional die and add it to the result."

By making the threshold a set 8 or higher, 2d6 and 1d12 weapons have the same chance of triggering the bonus damage, but 1d12 weapons get a bigger boost, putting them slightly ahead of 2d6 weapons in average damage (9.2 vs 8.5), but both get a boost relative to GWF style as written. So if you're a two-handed weapon user who wants an offense-oriented style, you now have an incentive to use a 1d12 weapon; but if you take Defense style you are more effective with a 2d6 weapon. This style gives the smallest boost to 1d10 weapons, increasing the damage gap between polearms and other heavy weapons (making PAM a bit less of an obvious choice).

Meanwhile you could tweak GWF style by just flat out allowing you to roll one extra damage die and drop the lowest result. This is actually slightly worse for 2d6 weapons than rerolling all 1s and 2s, since you can't reroll both dice, for an average result of 8.24 instead of 8.33, and better for 1d12 weapons (it makes the average damage 8 instead of 7.3).

In both cases the gap between 2d6 and 1d12 weapons is reduced, but one style increases variability and favors the already-high-variability 1d12 weapons, whereas the other decreases variability and favors the already lower variability 2d6 weapons.

Maybe keep the normal benefit (rerolls 1s and 2s), but add something that specifically benefits a large die? Like "If you roll a 7 or higher on any damage die, the damage of the die increases by 2." That makes 1d12 and 2d6 perfectly equivalent at 8.33, and makes the change a simple buff to underperforming weapons, rather than a change to an existing system.

 

[Esker]

Maybe keep the normal benefit (rerolls 1s and 2s), but add something that specifically benefits a large die? Like "If you roll a 7 or higher on any damage die, the damage of the die increases by 2." That makes 1d12 and 2d6 perfectly equivalent at 8.33, and makes the change a simple buff to underperforming weapons, rather than a change to an existing system.

That's a nice idea too, but from a streamlining perspective, I'd rather not have two different dice modification mechanics going on at the same time. It also still doesn't give you any reason to choose a 1d12 weapon, since all else being equal, lower variability is better, so I think you need to make the average damage a bit higher to compensate.

 

[Esker]

An idea I had to make fighting with a one-handed or versatile weapon and no shield a viable option (and apologies if something like this has already been suggested; I only skimmed the first couple pages of the thread):

Nimble Fighting

When you take the attack action and miss an attack with a finesse or versatile weapon, your next attack this turn is made at advantage. If your next attack would already have advantage or you have no attacks remaining, you may make one additional attack at disadvantage as part of the same attack action. You do not gain this benefit if you are wearing a shield.

 

[TwoSix]

That's a nice idea too, but from a streamlining perspective, I'd rather not have two different dice modification mechanics going on at the same time. It also still doesn't give you any reason to choose a 1d12 weapon, since all else being equal, lower variability is better, so I think you need to make the average damage a bit higher to compensate.

Well, it does have a higher top level, which feels like a key differentiator. Reliability versus higher ceiling is a fair trade-off, to my mind.

I can understand the hesitance about avoiding the complexity of two different dice mods, but they feel separated to me. You check for 1s and 2s, you reroll, then you sum the dice values and add 2 for every 7+ that's left. It will usually just be one die, outside of crit fishers, who will probably enjoy the increase to nova damage anyway. But it's definitely a fair aesthetic criticism to make.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Maybe just "The next attack made against you with advantage does not benefit from advantage". Shows how they're good at neutralizing an enemy's strengths and/or covering their own weaknesses. I think shifter race in the Eberron book has a similar mechanic.

I wanted to keep it different from Shifters. I know it was similar so I will have to double-check exactly what they get and maybe make it a bit more universal as you suggest.

For the bonus attack, maybe the attack is made at disadvantage, but becomes a normal attack once you have Extra Attack?

That is a good idea and I will add it. This way with the Extra Attack feature when you Dodge, you can still make a single attack without penalty.

Yea, any dice mechanic is problematic because of the 2d6. Maybe change it to only one die can be maxed, total, per damage roll? That would change the average on 2d6 to 9.53.....Ok, maybe that isn't much better!

I tried just the single die as well and it really didn't make much difference. I tried advantage on the damage roll, too. Although the +3 is a big boost, I will probably just keep it with that for now.

Putting everyone in a group is just asking for them to get AoEed to death, though...at that point, they need the Dex bonus! Although maybe instead of half cover, it's just apply your shield bonus? That would have the benefit of not stacking with other shield users.

That's what I went with. They grant all allies within 5 feet a +2 to AC, but nothing for DEX saves. I don't mind if the ally benefits from their own shield as well. Kind of makes up a "shield wall" or something.

I feel like a knife thrower or an axe chucker you should get some benefit from having both their hands using weapons instead of a shield. Maybe give the two-weapon benefit (+stat to damage for off-hand attacks) when they make an attack with a thrown weapon?

Well, they can still use this style and have a shield, and can use their bonus action to make a second weapon attack as per normal TWF. Also, with the bonus +1 damage I don't know that they need the "off-hand" ability bonus also. I'll have to think about it.

 

[Garthanos]

Blind Fighting
View attachment 117904

That looks very similar to the whistles in the dark ahem Warlord Cantrip I was considering (related to a Bard derived Warlord Build)

 

[DND_Reborn]

@TwoSix , @Esker :

Since you both were looking to options for GWF, how about this:

If you roll a 3 or lower on a damage die, you can roll an additional die and add it to your damage. If you are rolling more than one dice, you only apply this benefit to one die.

If I got everything right, I think this will result in:

d8: 4.5 -> 6.1875 (+1.6875)
d10: 5.5 -> 7.15 (+1.65)
d12: 6.5 -> 8.125 (+1.625)
2d4: 5 -> 6.875 (+1.875)
2d6: 7 -> 8.75 (+1.75)

So, this grants a bonus a bit less than Dueling's +2. Of course the biggest gain is for the DBS since it does 2d4 and the one die will usually roll 1-3. In this way, it is almost effectively increasing the DBS to 3d4.

 

[TwoSix]

@dnd4vr

I might phrase it as "You can only add one additional die to a damage roll." Other than that, the math checks out.

I think it's totally a fine approach. I kind of prefer mine, but my design criteria are slightly different (I like d12s more than 2d6, so I want to boost them, I like to maintain current rules where I can and just add on additional benefits). I think yours make a lot of sense for your own design goals. Although the 2d4 thing is slightly awkward, but that probably can't be helped.

 

[TwoSix]

Well, they can still use this style and have a shield, and can use their bonus action to make a second weapon attack as per normal TWF. Also, with the bonus +1 damage I don't know that they need the "off-hand" ability bonus also. I'll have to think about it.

I think it's because I generally visualize throwing weapons as being a complement to other fighting styles, rather than just moving around and throwing things. Like you throw a spear at someone to distract them as you move in for the attack. Or you throw one of your knives at an approaching enemy while you're engaged in a fight with another.