Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2 and support for other playing styles/subgenres

[!DWolf]

My personal experience is that the game is pretty adaptable. I have never ran an adventure path, module, or PFS scenario in PF2. My experiences as a GM revolved around a combination of sandbox techniques and more character focused stuff. It worked wonderfully. What it does not handle well, but 5e excels at is GM attempts to control outcomes and pacing. The game is too dynamic for that.

I do run APs, though heavily modified - I usually turn them into mini-sandboxes like a more dynamic version of a soulsborne game if that makes sense. So, I use a lot of sandbox techniques and rule customizations (I ran an island adventure sandbox with custom resource management and extremely limited access to weapons and armor for example) and my experience matches this - the game is very adaptable and runs fantastically as long as you are not firmly attached to a desired outcome to any given encounter.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

5E's greatest strength is its loose tolerances: you can toss certain things in and out and (generally speaking) you have a lot of leeway as to whether the PCs can handle it as long as they are beyond 1st or 2nd level. Of course, D&D also has a CR problem when it comes to being more precise with balancing, but that's what you get.

@The-Magic-Sword : I can see how it can be confusing given how things have worked for years in D&D. I can just kind of accept it for something a little different.

Yeah, if someone just popped up asking how it worked because they couldn't quite wrap head around the concept I wouldn't blame them at all.

Its more that Zapp's gymnastics in terms of turning every little thing he comes across into something it isn't, is kind of a pattern, its like every time they find a rule, they actively look for the most tortured way of reading it, and insist that its a crippling systemic flaw.

We went through it with his reading of skill feats as the exclusive way of performing an action, we're going through it with his impression of the game as not facilitating sandbox play at all, its just kind of an ongoing thing where he completely dominates the conversation with it.

 

[kenada]

I... I get this and don't disagree with the reasoning, but at the same time I'm actually for getting away from being able to whack things with spells and swords. At a certain level I can explain it away as haunts being so much more spectral that they are less effected by what works in the physical world but are more effected by the Divine. And given that something like Turn Undead is an aspect of being damage by a Heal spell, it creates different metaphysics that were previously there.

So I can't deny that they break the classic metaphysical ideas of Undead in D&D, but that's why I think I like them.

What I mean by “physics” is that the system has an internal consistency. Certain things work certain ways. When I say that PF2 is a prescriptive system, you have a lot of various things you take or can do that demonstrate your character’s proficiency. It’s not really a game where you’re expected to improvise effects like that. For example, I’d expect something like a seance or creating wards to fall under the ritual subsystem.

I mean, I'm the guy who explicitly wrote out what skills could do in 5E so that my players would start using them, so signposting isn't a problem for me. Are you a skills challenge guy or not? Maybe that's the thing here, because I think I'm more on the side of trying to use skills in abstract ways like skill challenges kind of want you to, even if I'm not sure that's the best way to do that sort of thing.

I had a hunch skill challenges might come up. I’m not a skill challenges guy, especially if one is revealing which skills are pertinent to the challenge. The time I ran the VP subsystem, it was entirely as a tool for my own use. I wouldn’t ever make something like that player facing. It clashes with the style of play I try to cultivate. As a player, I’m not particularly fond of it either.

I dunno, you can have wards that aren't necessarily magical that work on skill checks, but they are limited in scope.

How does a non-magical ward work? What are the setting and system implications of that? This goes back to what I mean by the “physics” of the system. Having a system with some kind of internal logic is important to me.

I disagree. Not that you couldn't do it as a VP encounter, but I don't think most VP systems deal with damage or are necessarily meant to be active in the same way. In this case, they wanted spectral stuff that caused damage, which fits with building a Hazard. I think it was @!DWolf who structured some of their infiltration stuff as Hazards, or at least one time where the guards raised the alarm and started shooting, and I see this as a similar usage.

The idea behind using the VP subsystem is it can track progress towards a goal over time. You can layer it over the regular act of exploration, and as the PCs uncover clues and take actions to deal with it, the VP subsystem would track progress towards a conclusion. You could even run multiple VP tracks to handle things like complications. That’s pretty much for what and how clocks are used in other games.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I think the VP system would be a very cool structure for a large scale haunting, where it would track the occurrence of certain events as a result of progress made in an investigation of a haunted building. It would be a cool way to pace the drama without constraining the players too much. I could also see it as a kind of exorcism challenge where progress toward moving on / being exorcised could be tracked.

 

[kenada]

Yeah, if someone just popped up asking how it worked because they couldn't quite wrap head around the concept I wouldn't blame them at all.

Its more that Zapp's gymnastics in terms of turning every little thing he comes across into something it isn't, is kind of a pattern, its like every time they find a rule, they actively look for the most tortured way of reading it, and insist that its a crippling systemic flaw.

We went through it with his reading of skill feats as the exclusive way of performing an action, we're going through it with his impression of the game as not facilitating sandbox play at all, its just kind of an ongoing thing where he completely dominates the conversation with it.

I think I was the one who raised the issue of how to run them. @Justice and Rule touched on where I was going with that line of questioning. As written, they remind me of skill challenges, which I didn’t like. I also very strongly dislike using knowledge checks to inform players of how they should solve a problem. I prefer to keep knowledge checks informational. Players should be the ones figuring out the how, but the way haunts are written makes it sometimes non-obvious what the how is expected to be. And in my experience with them in PF1, PCs just navigated around and avoided them.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

I also prefer informational knowledge checks, in this instance it would be more like "you know that you do have sufficent skill to exorcise it" because thats something the character would know they know how to do, but the player might not realize is an option.

But I'd present it as a player unknown, that its literally a disable mechanic on a trap, instead it would be presented as "this seems to be x, you did learn how to perform exorcism as part of your [why ever the hell they have religion] so you estimate you might be able to pull one off here"

Notably, this would be less necessary going forward once the player understand their religion skill is a tool to be used in this way.

 

[Justice and Rule]

What I mean by “physics” is that the system has an internal consistency. Certain things work certain ways. When I say that PF2 is a prescriptive system, you have a lot of various things you take or can do that demonstrate your character’s proficiency. It’s not really a game where you’re expected to improvise effects like that. For example, I’d expect something like a seance or creating wards to fall under the ritual subsystem.

Ah, so you mean like design consistency. I get ya.

I had a hunch skill challenges my come up. I’m not a skill challenges guy, especially if one is revealing which skills are pertinent to the challenge. The time I ran the VP subsystem, it was entirely as a tool for my own use. I wouldn’t ever make something like that player facing. It clashes with the style of play I try to cultivate. As a player, I’m not particularly fond of it either.

Yeah, Skill Challenges can be iffy. I'm reminded a while back when I was watching Critical Role and there was a point at which they were running away in a jungle and Matt called for a Skill Challenge and... it just didn't work for me. I think the big thing is that it went on too long, but it's one of those things where doing a more fluid chase would have worked better.

And it doesn't necessarily have to be something that is solved via a knowledge check as much as someone who has the Religion skill should know that Haunts are generally vulnerable to prayer and exorcism. I'm more thinking using the knowledge check to identify whether it's a haunt or a straight-up spirit, if you catch my drift. The identification of what it is helps inform you of how to take care of it.

How does a non-magical ward work? What are the setting and system implications of that? This goes back to what I mean by the “physics” of the system. Having a system with some kind of internal logic is important to me.

I'd say a lower-scale Religion or Occultism check that required components, like salt or chalk, and maybe something similar to a ritual-style system. In practice it would be less disabling a trap by taking it apart and more jamming something in a gear; it can come loose or eventually break over time.

But I get requiring more consistent design logic. Hrm. Maybe I'll work on plotting out some. I'll be honest, thinking about it made me interested in it as a topic.

The idea behind using the VP subsystem is it can track progress towards a goal over time. You can layer it over the regular act of exploration, and as the PCs uncover clues and take actions to deal with it, the VP subsystem would track progress towards a conclusion. You could even run multiple VP tracks to handle things like complications. That’s pretty much for what and how clocks are used in other games.

No, I get that. I'm just not sure that's what they were going for with Haunts. I totally understand what you are saying, I just don't think they pictured Haunts as something requiring the VP system. But differences of opinion and all that.

 

[payn]

I think I was the one who raised the issue of how to run them. @Justice and Rule touched on where I was going with that line of questioning. As written, they remind me of skill challenges, which I didn’t like. I also very strongly dislike using knowledge checks to inform players of how they should solve a problem. I prefer to keep knowledge checks informational. Players should be the ones figuring out the how, but the way haunts are written makes it sometimes non-obvious what the how is expected to be. And in my experience with them in PF1, PCs just navigated around and avoided them.

Avoiding and navigating around haunts didnt seem like a bug to me. You can neutralize them for a period and move on, rush through them and hope for the best, or study a bit and put them to final rest. The ouija board communication was a fantastic way to add some roleplay into haunted houses, if the players fancied that kind of story. However, im not sure they kept the oujia communication in PF2?

 

[kenada]

Avoiding and navigating around haunts didnt seem like a bug to me. You can neutralize them for a period and move on, rush through them and hope for the best, or study a bit and put them to final rest. The ouija board communication was a fantastic way to add some roleplay into haunted houses, if the players fancied that kind of story. However, im not sure they kept the oujia communication in PF2?

I don’t remember the ouija board stuff from PF1.

 

[payn]

I don’t remember the ouija board stuff from PF1.

In the Carrion Crown AP there was a set of rules for using a Ouijia board to commune with the spirit of the haunt. The player could try and understand how the haunt came about, and more importantly, what they could do to finally put it to rest. It was a ton of fun for my players for awhile, but eventually it became time consuming. The first adventure is a haunted house and the entire first floor is a dozen haunts.