Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2e: is it RAW or RAI to always take 10 minutes and heal between encounters?

[dave2008]

The issue with Zapp is that he thinks his positions are not only a matter of taste or personal issues, but self-evident problems that anyone who was not being deliberately resistant should understand. In other words, he massively begs the question and then is outraged when people don't play along.

You'll notice Retreater, for example, does not get the same eyerolls as Zapp, even though he's clearly got big issues with PF2e. That's because he doesn't try and extend it beyond his personal bad experiences and assume that everyone who feels otherwise is being disingenuous.

I guess I am just used to him from his 5e days. I get that he rubs people the wrong way, but he usually has good points when he is not demanding we should be offended the WotC or Paizo created something so terrible

 

[dave2008]

(everything else besides that is up to gm in my opinion. That said I do agree having more dynamic events and "creatures react like this when time passes or have visited floor" would be really great, I also think that kind of stuff takes lot of page amount and is really up to gm in the end anyway. You are however right that AV as written does feel static for most part, but I think dungeon crawls in general more often rely on the "snapshot before players arrive" effect.)

I don't know the AP, so I can't comment on the rest of your post. However, it doesn't IMO take much page count to make a dungeon become a living breathing community. Dungeon crawls often are static, but they don't need to be and given Paizo's trend to innovate I would hope they would do better.

 

[Retreater]

I mean, the smoking gun we both know about launches after first level after which Mayor is like "oh no can you please investigate this and figure out what is going on?"

Dunno what more to say besides that I strongly disagree with your take. I just think the combination of "your friend wants you to investigate the dungeon", "we joined mega dungeon crawl campaign" and "after things escalates, authority hires you to investigate further" are good enough hooks.

(everything else besides that is up to gm in my opinion. That said I do agree having more dynamic events and "creatures react like this when time passes or have visited floor" would be really great, I also think that kind of stuff takes lot of page amount and is really up to gm in the end anyway. You are however right that AV as written does feel static for most part, but I think dungeon crawls in general more often rely on the "snapshot before players arrive" effect.)

In my group's experience, that wasn't enough to hook them. I think they couldn't see any direct causation between the attack on Otari (by summoning in the attackers) and the lighthouse, and perhaps more drastically couldn't see how their exploration of the dungeon was going to do anything to stop the future attacks. Maybe it was a case (for us) of having too many subplots and disconnected elements before they got to the "plot" of the adventure - which basically starts to come up after completing the 4th level of the dungeon.
I'm very glad to hear that it's working for you and your group. It's not even that PF2 is a "bad" system - from a mechanical standpoint I would rank it higher than other systems I'm currently running (Warhammer Fantasy 4e and Forbidden Lands). My primary issue with the system has been that I didn't like the implementation of the Adventure Paths I've run (Age of Ashes - which was the first one and had some balance issues; and Abomination Vaults - because we bounced off the buy-in of a megadungeon).
Would I prefer a different Adventure Path or module - likely, yes. Could I create an adventure that better appeals to my group - definitely, yes.
I post about my bad experiences on here not to criticize any fans of Paizo, the specific adventure paths, etc. I operate under the idea that my groups (because I have run for various players) are not atypical in the hobby, and that similar issues might come up with other groups. If my bad experience can help other GMs to make a better experience for their table or find a more appropriate adventure for their tastes, then my bad experience won't be a complete waste.
Anyway, I hope that any of you who are feeling like you don't have a home here on ENWorld take comfort in the fact that there are many people on here who will react positively to you. There are fans of many systems and playstyles. I hope that you don't take my complaints to mean that I am hating on your favorite game or you personally. On the contrary, I'm a big fan of you, your group, your favorite system - as long as you're having a blast, keep at it!

 

[payn]

In my group's experience, that wasn't enough to hook them. I think they couldn't see any direct causation between the attack on Otari (by summoning in the attackers) and the lighthouse, and perhaps more drastically couldn't see how their exploration of the dungeon was going to do anything to stop the future attacks.

It's true. We kept exploring but never really uncovered anything substantial about the who, what, why of the attacks. Just more monsters.

Maybe it was a case (for us) of having too many subplots and disconnected elements before they got to the "plot" of the adventure - which basically starts to come up after completing the 4th level of the dungeon.

Paizo APs often have a ton of sub-plots. I really enjoy this as a player and GM, but it does take effort for the GM to piece those together coherently for the players. That isnt often done well in the pages of the modules.

I'm very glad to hear that it's working for you and your group. It's not even that PF2 is a "bad" system - from a mechanical standpoint I would rank it higher than other systems I'm currently running (Warhammer Fantasy 4e and Forbidden Lands). My primary issue with the system has been that I didn't like the implementation of the Adventure Paths I've run (Age of Ashes - which was the first one and had some balance issues; and Abomination Vaults - because we bounced off the buy-in of a megadungeon).

This is a hot take, but I just dont think PF2 does mega dungeons or sandbox play well.

Would I prefer a different Adventure Path or module - likely, yes. Could I create an adventure that better appeals to my group - definitely, yes.

I know you can.

I post about my bad experiences on here not to criticize any fans of Paizo, the specific adventure paths, etc. I operate under the idea that my groups (because I have run for various players) are not atypical in the hobby, and that similar issues might come up with other groups. If my bad experience can help other GMs to make a better experience for their table or find a more appropriate adventure for their tastes, then my bad experience won't be a complete waste.
Anyway, I hope that any of you who are feeling like you don't have a home here on ENWorld take comfort in the fact that there are many people on here who will react positively to you. There are fans of many systems and playstyles. I hope that you don't take my complaints to mean that I am hating on your favorite game or you personally. On the contrary, I'm a big fan of you, your group, your favorite system - as long as you're having a blast, keep at it!

Word. I think part of the issue is the old school forum is dying. Folks are flocking to reddit and discord, unfortunately, so the conversations are getting overrun by the most dedicated and often incendiary posters. Those in the middle voices are fewer than in the past.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

Sona Jobarteh & Band - Bannaya

Fair , ok i will never again visit this site again, it is just bad for the mental health of thoose who like a place to find escapism for the real problems from the real world. It is a shame cause i visit this place since the layout was black and yelow (if my memory is sound) and was aways a place that i found insteristing topics . I know that this means nothing comming from a simple teacher from Brazil but the level of arrogance that this guy creates here make me stay away from Level up 5e (a game that i had high expectives) . OBs> Tomorrow if the heroes of my campaing survive a great party will happens on the canal of the City of the Song Wind. TO CappZapp please continue your quest to destroy PF2 .

Well that seems like quite the over reaction. Also since you appear to be equally arrogant. And the at is the point, I don’t know you and you don’t know me. Just relax a little and enjoy the discussion. If you don’t enjoy Capps post, you can always block him and just enjoy the more favorable PF2 comments

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

The issue with Zapp is that he thinks his positions are not only a matter of taste or personal issues, but self-evident problems that anyone who was not being deliberately resistant should understand. In other words, he massively begs the question and then is outraged when people don't play along.

You'll notice Retreater, for example, does not get the same eyerolls as Zapp, even though he's clearly got big issues with PF2e. That's because he doesn't try and extend it beyond his personal bad experiences and assume that everyone who feels otherwise is being disingenuous.

He never seems outraged to me, more surprise and shocked. But I get it. I don’t fall in line with how he blames Paizo and WotC for “bad design” but I think he often has good points and i appreciate that he tries to come up with solutions.

 

[kenada]

This is a hot take, but I just dont think PF2 does mega dungeons or sandbox play well.

I’m skeptical. Pathfinder 2e wouldn’t be my first choice for those kinds of games, but it seemed to do okay when I ran them with it. My issues with the system ultimately came down to my evolving system preferences rather than systemic problems. I also believe @The-Magic-Sword is doing some sandbox stuff as well, and that seems to be going okay.

My impression of Abomination Vaults from these discussions is it seems to be confused about what it is trying to be. The way @Retreater describes the problems sounds like it assumes a default action of explore, but he is looking for a traditional adventure with the structures in place for leading you through the adventure’s story to its conclusion. In that case, the default action alone is not enough of a hook, and the adventure feels unsatisfying.

I don’t think that kind of problem is an indictment of PF2. It seems more like an issue with Paizo’s long history of and experience with writing traditional adventures, and having that format not quite work very well for something that’s a bit less traditional. I wonder if the Abomination Vaults might not have been better if it were written more as a site-based adventure rather than how it ended up.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I guess I am just used to him from his 5e days. I get that he rubs people the wrong way, but he usually has good points when he is not demanding we should be offended the WotC or Paizo created something so terrible

He does; I've seen him do so both on here and on the Paizo forums. But he does himself no favors when he either effectively or actively accuses anyone disagreeing with him of being disingenuous. And he does that a fair bit.

 

[Thomas Shey]

He never seems outraged to me, more surprise and shocked. But I get it. I don’t fall in line with how he blames Paizo and WotC for “bad design” but I think he often has good points and i appreciate that he tries to come up with solutions.

He's been exceedingly dismissive on multiple occasions I've seen of other points of view. As you say, when he's not doing that he can sometimes have useful things to say, but there's a certain degree of sifting through the chaff to find the wheat at best, and that's assuming you're willing to deal with his attitude when you don't accept his premise in the first place.

Anyone can do this sometimes, but if someone does it regularly, they ought to expect to get a lot of eyerolling.

 

[payn]

I’m skeptical. Pathfinder 2e wouldn’t be my first choice for those kinds of games, but it seemed to do okay when I ran them with it. My issues with the system ultimately came down to my evolving system preferences rather than systemic problems. I also believe @The-Magic-Sword is doing some sandbox stuff as well, and that seems to be going okay.

Yes, the-magic-sword does great work evangelizing PF2. Though, the amount of dedicated work to explain how to use PF2 old school and sandbox tells me it isnt natural to the system. Which is why I said well instead of cant.

My impression of Abomination Vaults from these discussions is it seems to be confused about what it is trying to be. The way @Retreater describes the problems sounds like it assumes a default action of explore, but he is looking for a traditional adventure with the structures in place for leading you through the adventure’s story to its conclusion. In that case, the default action alone is not enough of a hook, and the adventure feels unsatisfying.

There was some story going on. We uncovered some really cool history of the dungeon. However, many inhabitants had interesting stories that I believe Retreater had trouble telling the PCs. I mean, it just ended up being an endless series of fights. This is something that happens often in Paizo modules in that there is an interesting story about why things are there, and what they are doing. How you tell the PCs this can quite difficult with little guide from the module.

I don’t think that kind of problem is an indictment of PF2. It seems more like an issue with Paizo’s long history of and experience with writing traditional adventures, and having that format not quite work very well for something that’s a bit less traditional. I wonder if the Abomination Vaults might not have been better if it were written more as a site-based adventure rather than how it ended up.

I think the system was too new for the module writers to make adequately. You cant just write an adventure the same way you did 20,30,40 years ago. The-Magic-Sword's work on the subject tells me you need a good understanding of PF2 to do this well. On top of that, you somehow have to write an adventure while also instructing people on how to run a megadungeon in PF2. Thats a lot of heavy lifting to put on a module.