Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2e: is it RAW or RAI to always take 10 minutes and heal between encounters?

[Retreater]

Well thing is... I disagree with take there is no character motivation or urgency.

There is pretty much smoking gun pointed at city and pretty strong reason to look into it

Except that there is no information about there being any threat to the city until you go down like 4 levels into the dungeon. Even then, the threat is very nebulous. All that the players have to go on is that an NPC in Otari has seen lights in a supposedly abandoned lighthouse.
Consider something like the start of Rise of the Runelords, which opens with a goblin raid on Sandpoint. Or even something like the start of Lost Mines of Phandelver, trying to find a kidnapped business associate. You certainly see the difference?
My players' characters, after playing for months, had zero motivation to go any deeper into the dungeon. There was no real connection between the mites on level 1, the grimlocks on level 2, the ghouls on level 3, and the voidwraith on level 4.
Like if you had the mites raiding Otari, or ghouls invading the cemetery, or basically anything. The only connection there is to Otari in the first book is a random teleportation of enemies into the cemetery, which isn't even really overtly connected to the tower, no evidence if or when it could happen again, any indication that exploration of the dungeon can stop said attacks, any idea of who might be behind it, etc.
It's fine that you like the adventure. I'm not saying you're wrong to like it. What I'm saying is that you added motivation and story to the adventure that isn't there. I am criticizing the adventure for not having adequate motivation or story. Yes, it can be added, but it's not there.

 

[Dragonsbane]

I am running AV for a group of 4, all gnomes. I changed around the plot to be located in my homebrew world in the Gnomish lands, and the AV antagonist is changed to Salvatore Togglesrpocket, a rogue wizard who left the mageocracy of the gnomes of Dammarth. I combined it with a second plot of my own that pits two elemental clans into nationalistic conflict against each other for control of the gnomish nation, with the Children of Pyre (fire) a kind of imitation of Russia/Putin and Clan Azure (water) with a new leader, a nationalistic outsider buffoon who is manipulated by the fire clan, trying to destroy the water clan from within by self-destruction. Also has some ties to that Dr. Suess book about the two races disliking each other. Players are loving it.

So far, AV has been great as far as a mega-dungeon, but I do find myself having to motivate the group via my own IC means, like the church of Alagolothor (magic) sending the heroes on missions of explorations and discovery. Originally I had skipped the attack on the town, but soon I will have Salvatore send some living experiments the way of the gnome city of Chumbawamba to help keep them interested > But yes, my RP group needed an additional plot, as the only RP in the adventure it would seem would be with enemies and perhaps townsfolk.

 

[payn]

I am running AV for a group of 4, all gnomes. I changed around the plot to be located in my homebrew world in the Gnomish lands, and the AV antagonist is changed to Salvatore Togglesrpocket, a rogue wizard who left the mageocracy of the gnomes of Dammarth. I combined it with a second plot of my own that pits two elemental clans into nationalistic conflict against each other for control of the gnomish nation, with the Children of Pyre (fire) a kind of imitation of Russia/Putin and Clan Azure (water) with a new leader, a nationalistic outsider buffoon who is manipulated by the fire clan, trying to destroy the water clan from within by self-destruction. Also has some ties to that Dr. Suess book about the two races disliking each other. Players are loving it.

So far, AV has been great as far as a mega-dungeon, but I do find myself having to motivate the group via my own IC means, like the church of Alagolothor (magic) sending the heroes on missions of explorations and discovery. Originally I had skipped the attack on the town, but soon I will have Salvatore send some living experiments the way of the gnome city of Chumbawamba to help keep them interested > But yes, my RP group needed an additional plot, as the only RP in the adventure it would seem would be with enemies and perhaps townsfolk.

Nice. Sometimes these APs are tough because you have to really endear the people and places or the PCs dont really care. Saving a town can be a great motivator if you feel connected to it, but its meh if you are not. Often, in Carrion Crown the townsfolk were supposed to be suspicious and dubious of outsiders so the PCs never wanted to help those jerks lol.

 

[The-Magic-Sword]

Yeah, different table cultures approach heroic motivation differently as well-- some people have to decide they personally care about the people that they're saving, while others just need the town to be in danger so that it slots into desire to be heroic and save a town, if that makes sense. Its the difference between hey I want to save this town, I care about this town and there's a town in danger? We better save it! Obviously the second is still enhanced by the presence of the first, but some players need the first a lot more than others.

I've even had the same player show me both sides but at different times, where they'll give me feedback about not wanting to care, just wanting to be given something to do (in which case telling him he's on a mission and dropping him on the dungeon's doorstep is cool) while also struggling with session zero "You tell ME why you care about this thing I'm telling you about before you create characters" and ending up with a character who isn't interested in the thing I said to build a character interested in.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

By the way my games are public , and if this Capzapp want to check please go to the Official Pathfinder Society Brazil (maybe we from the south are to low for his high standart) and check if what i am saying is truth from my last game . PF2 is the most advanced system that i ever gm , and trust me i came all the way back , dnd2 , 3.0 , 3,5 , pf1 (in my heart) and now PF2. But i cant stand come to this site and see the hate and arrogance that this guy pour on the game that a lot of us love.

People are allowed to have different opinions and experiences. Flaws and success can be subjective.

And it is not like he is the only person on these forums who had had issues with the game. If it is perfect for you, doesn’t mean it is perfect for everyone

 

[kayman]

People are allowed to have different opinions and experiences. Flaws and success can be subjective.

And it is not like he is the only person on these forums who had had issues with the game. If it is perfect for you, doesn’t mean it is perfect for everyone

Sona Jobarteh & Band - Bannaya

Fair , ok i will never again visit this site again, it is just bad for the mental health of thoose who like a place to find escapism for the real problems from the real world. It is a shame cause i visit this place since the layout was black and yelow (if my memory is sound) and was aways a place that i found insteristing topics . I know that this means nothing comming from a simple teacher from Brazil but the level of arrogance that this guy creates here make me stay away from Level up 5e (a game that i had high expectives) . OBs> Tomorrow if the heroes of my campaing survive a great party will happens on the canal of the City of the Song Wind. TO CappZapp please continue your quest to destroy PF2 .

 

[Thomas Shey]

People are allowed to have different opinions and experiences. Flaws and success can be subjective.

And it is not like he is the only person on these forums who had had issues with the game. If it is perfect for you, doesn’t mean it is perfect for everyone

The issue with Zapp is that he thinks his positions are not only a matter of taste or personal issues, but self-evident problems that anyone who was not being deliberately resistant should understand. In other words, he massively begs the question and then is outraged when people don't play along.

You'll notice Retreater, for example, does not get the same eyerolls as Zapp, even though he's clearly got big issues with PF2e. That's because he doesn't try and extend it beyond his personal bad experiences and assume that everyone who feels otherwise is being disingenuous.

 

[MaskedGuy]

Except that there is no information about there being any threat to the city until you go down like 4 levels into the dungeon. Even then, the threat is very nebulous. All that the players have to go on is that an NPC in Otari has seen lights in a supposedly abandoned lighthouse.

I mean, the smoking gun we both know about launches after first level after which Mayor is like "oh no can you please investigate this and figure out what is going on?"

Dunno what more to say besides that I strongly disagree with your take. I just think the combination of "your friend wants you to investigate the dungeon", "we joined mega dungeon crawl campaign" and "after things escalates, authority hires you to investigate further" are good enough hooks.

(everything else besides that is up to gm in my opinion. That said I do agree having more dynamic events and "creatures react like this when time passes or have visited floor" would be really great, I also think that kind of stuff takes lot of page amount and is really up to gm in the end anyway. You are however right that AV as written does feel static for most part, but I think dungeon crawls in general more often rely on the "snapshot before players arrive" effect.)

 

[dave2008]

Sona Jobarteh & Band - Bannaya

Fair , ok i will never again visit this site again, it is just bad for the mental health of thoose who like a place to find escapism for the real problems from the real world. It is a shame cause i visit this place since the layout was black and yelow (if my memory is sound) and was aways a place that i found insteristing topics . I know that this means nothing comming from a simple teacher from Brazil but the level of arrogance that this guy creates here make me stay away from Level up 5e (a game that i had high expectives) . OBs> Tomorrow if the heroes of my campaing survive a great party will happens on the canal of the City of the Song Wind.

That is a rather odd and a bit immature reaction IMO. But if mental health is at risk, I get it - you do you. There are definitely PF2 supporters here and I personally think it is a good thing to discuss issues we have with the game. That is kinda the point of a forum IMO, to exchange ideas.

TO CappZapp please continue your quest to destroy PF2 .

It sounds like you might be new to this forum and Cappy. He doesn't want to destroy PF2. He critiques because he cares. If he didn't care he wouldn't comment on or play the game. FYI, he also bashed what he saw as the issues with 5e. He comments on them to try and make the game better (that is why he often proposes fixes) from his viewpoint. Now, if you spent much time on this forum or the 5e forum, you will see most people don't buy into the extremes of his viewpoint, but there is almost always some good and useful information in there if you can cut through some of the flak.

Also, if you really want to converse with Capp, you need to use the @ symbol immediately before this name. That will ping him then, like; @dave2008 (not sure I can ping myself)

 

[dave2008]

...but the level of arrogance that this guy creates here make me stay away from Level up 5e (a game that i had high expectives) .

You do realize the Capp has nothing to do with LevelUp correct? He is just a person who posts on this forum, nothing more. Why would his post affect your opinion of LevelUp at all?