Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2e: is it RAW or RAI to always take 10 minutes and heal between encounters?

Skill actions tell you what their constraints and requirements are, so it shouldn’t be necessary to have knowledge of all feats. Just run them as written, and when a PC wants more than that, they can attempt it at a cost. This approach has the benefit of accommodating activities for which a feat hasn’t been created yet (since knowledge of all feats is unnecessary). As a rule of thumb, one should be safe increasing the DC, requiring more time, requiring more actions, etc because feats generally rely on having taken the feat as the cost for the benefit.

Sure, and I'm fine doing that but it creates more work than a better design.

Trained in Diplomacy
GM and players not studied feats
Player: "I'd like to Make an Impression on all 3 guards"
GM: "Sure, but increase the DC by 2 for multiple people at once"
Hmm...

Without knowledge of the feats, you don't have good signpoints on how to set the "cost".

what should I do? Is PF2 broken? has my responsibility of GM needing to memorize thousands of pages of text ruined the game? no, I answer thusly: "yeah, my bad. sorry, it was a call in the moment. the next time we need to swing across chandelier's you remind me that you have a feat for this, OK? thanks for keeping me honest :)".

Agreed, It's not that big of a deal. Rational friends playing together (the only way to play IMO!) can move past it as you outlined. PF2E isn't broken by this, but I think it's an annoying design choice and doesn't add much for net negative. So I'm not as extreme as CapnZapp, but I definitely prefer other design options.
 

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kenada

Legend
Supporter
Sure, and I'm fine doing that but it creates more work than a better design.

Trained in Diplomacy
GM and players not studied feats
Player: "I'd like to Make an Impression on all 3 guards"
GM: "Sure, but increase the DC by 2 for multiple people at once"
Hmm...

Without knowledge of the feats, you don't have good signpoints on how to set the "cost".
I’m more inclined to increase the DC by 5, but that seems fine. If the group later decides that increasing it by 2 wasn’t enough, they can adjust and carry on. That seems to be more or less what you’re proposing except in reverse. You’d have the feats grant a bonus against a universal DC, while I’m suggesting adding a cost (such as increasing the DC) to non-standard uses that could be negated by feats. Your proposal is conceptually simpler, but that’s separate from whether knowledge of all feats is required. I don’t think it is when you can do something that feels right and make adjustments if problems manifest later. Otherwise, making any ruling is potentially paralyzing, and that’s bad for the game.
 


Teemu

Hero
For non-Group Impression group Make an Impression, you can have the player make separate checks for each creature. That way Group Impression retains value since you could have modifiers or fortune effects on a single roll, whereas with the separate checks you would often only add a bonus or a reroll on one of them.
 

I’m more inclined to increase the DC by 5, but that seems fine. If the group later decides that increasing it by 2 wasn’t enough, they can adjust and carry on. That seems to be more or less what you’re proposing except in reverse. You’d have the feats grant a bonus against a universal DC, while I’m suggesting adding a cost (such as increasing the DC) to non-standard uses that could be negated by feats. Your proposal is conceptually simpler, but that’s separate from whether knowledge of all feats is required. I don’t think it is when you can do something that feels right and make adjustments if problems manifest later. Otherwise, making any ruling is potentially paralyzing, and that’s bad for the game.

Yes, I tend to use +5 bonus as well as most of the Feats are very specific. Increasing DC / cost is fine as well. The advantage I see with bonuses:

1) I can be expansive with skill use and expect proficient users to do more "on level" stuff.
2) Feat takers get to "punch above their weight" instead of become level at things that aren't really crazy uses of skills IMO
3) it's easier for me as GM to have the players keep track of when their bonuses apply. I can just set the DC relative to fiction and go

I guess I just like more expansive base skill use -- is Society really that valuable already you can't let someone contact a crime boss or impersonate a noble with it?

But you can do it your way as well. Another formulation is "you can use any feat at your proficiency level at a -5 penalty or other appropriate cost".

The +2 DC example was more an example of knowing the Feats helps you determine the cost, and an example GM maybe not doing a good job of penalizing because of this.

Anyway, I think I've beat this horse.

The only points I'm trying to make is that people that don't like the "permissive" feat design have ways to fairly easily change things. I like broad skills and Feats as bonuses for narrow circumstances design for the reasons above, but there are other ways to do it as well (cost based, hero point to gain the benefits of any feat, etc.).

And there are other design paradigmns that avoid most of this discussion, although they may introduce other issues.
 

Feats in PF2e are narrow by design so not sure I see the worry. "You get a +5 bonus when using Society to try to gain an audience with crime bosses". "You get a +5 bonus when using Society to impersonate a Noble". I guess you could have players that argue the evil king is a sort of 'crime boss' or the barmaid is the 'nobility of scutlery', but that sounds like a different issue...

This is less of a burden on the game to me, because as GM I can just set a DC and the player can speak up if they have the bonus. Skills become more expansive. There doesn't have to be a big list of skill actions because if it makes sense under the skill there's no reason why you can't try it and there are no permission/gating feats to step on. You can just say yes and move on. Level 7 party. You want to use Society to impersonate a Duke in a country inn where they've heard stories but never seen the Duke -- Level 4 check. You want to impersonate a minor noble at a ball filled with nobles in the capital city. Level 15 check. That kind of impersonation is just likey outside your "tier of play" right now. But if you have the Feat, you might be able to punch above your weight.

In general, I actually like the idea of feats only adding options or giving new uses to skills. However, the way it's been implemented there are too many feats gating actions that seem like they should be part of the core skill use so it becomes unintuitive. I don't think anyone has a problem with Scare to Death gating.

Again, I don't think this is as big a deal as CapnZapp because I find it fairly easy to make some houserules and move on.

Oh no no no... don't mistake me. I get what you are proposing, but I just have a personal distaste for that sort of thing nowadays. I actually do really like creating the exceptions because I think the exceptions can create interesting situations rather than the players endlessly trying to modify things and playing around with DCs. At a certain level, sometimes I like soft-locking such things from players because it gets them to look at what they have or to use different options.
 

That's a legitimate decision on that, but it also is--perverse?--because it can end up meaning that you either didn't actually gain anything by choosing that approach (because the benefit of the higher attribute is washed out by the difficulty modification) so it can feel like a gotcha.

(Its one of the things I have against Storypath, the system used in some of the newer non-CoD games from Onyx Path; I understand the problem it was designed to address since I was a Scion 1e GM, but its a cure as bad as the disease far as I'm concerned since it pushes attributes toward meaninglessness).

I meant to come back to this, but I've been busy and wanted to make sure that bert knew I wasn't trying to come at him or anything.

But the system is complex in its simplicity, and it's interesting. The idea there is that you'll need to read your opponent and their personality to know how to properly get around them, which may require you use an approach that you normally don't but is better suited here: some people you can't just brute force with your best stat, but you need to tailor your approach to.

Like, another thing is that the ring you choose defines your "stance", which basically means you are locked into that ring for things like defensive rolls until you switch to another ring. What is interesting here is that certain techniques can be stronger against certain rings, meaning that you can have a Fire Kata (combat technique) which is specifically meant to hit Earth Ring guys hard, or a Water technique that disrupts Fire Ring guys. It's really cool. I just wish the book laid some of this stuff out better because my initial found it very difficult to grok until I made a concerted effort at it.

But when I did, it was like something like this.

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CapnZapp

Legend
The only difference between what you’re suggesting and what we’re suggesting is that your approach explicitly enumerates the trade-off instead of leaving it up to the GM to decide. If I say, “you can do (some activity) with a cost, and the feat lets you do it free,” and you say, “the rules let you do some activity, and the feat gives you a bonus while doing it,” what’s the difference? The cost has been shifted, but there’s still functionally a cost. The only difference is in how it’s accounted.

That’s only the case if you take it that way. I don’t think the system necessitates running it the way you claim it does. If you let someone do something at a cost, and a skill feat lets them do it for free, you haven’t invalidated the skill feat by your affordance. Yes, maybe now it’s less valuable in a strict sense, but if the game is more fun for everyone, then isn’t that a good thing?

On the other hand, if the players hate that and prefer you don’t do it, then where’s the problem? They don’t want you to be a permissive GM. They want you to take a very rigid approach to adjudicating the system that preserves (though I would argue increases) the value of their feat choices. Maybe it makes for a miserable experience, but that’s what they asked for and received.

It does tell you. Crawl tells you how fast you move (5′ in one action). Climb indicates in its requirements you must have both hands free. Leap and Long Jump tell you how far you can jump (Leap up to 10′ and Long Jump up to your speed based on the DC). Again, that’s how exception-based design works: you follow the general rule until you something brings the exception into play (a feat, a spell, the GM, etc).

They don't tell you how you get rid of these very severe and artificial restrictions. PF2 is a game where even high-level characters suffer from inexplicably harsh limitations - it comes across as a game where high-level heroes aren't trusted to do simple things: like crawl (or squeeze or jump etc) at more than a snail's pace.

At level 1 this might not be a big issue given how limited characters are otherwise. At level 10 or 20 it sticks out like a sore thumb. Having to find and take a specific feat just to get rid of a borderline-unplayable restriction is not a solution since it is no solution at all: if you pick quick crawler you can't afford to take quick squeezer, and if you pick quick squeezer you can't afford to pick quick climber. (Names might vary. I can't be arsed to remember the names of these obnoxious little pesky feats)

The core issue is that the game is incredibly ungenerous. What should be given out for free has been reserved for Paizo's design space. At every turn, Paizo has chosen to not just hand out something to everybody (that is sufficiently experienced and/or skilled), but instead to create this exasperating feats mini-game, thus ensuring nobody gets to ever feel whole.

It is unreasonable to ask a player to devote all his feat choices just to get rid of stupid limits that should not have been there in the first place, and are only there for Paizo to be able to brag about loads of options.

Options whose entire purpose of existance is only to negate or reduce artificial or reductive limitations are not solutions, they are problems.

I am arguing Paizo chose just about the shittiest solution to the problem imaginable: they wanted loads of options, but did not want to hand out actual agency for players to truly impact their characters, so they went the 4E nickel and dime route: they offer loads of "options" but very few that actually make a real difference.

And in this case, "options" that only allow you to act like a real hero could, unburdened by artificial and exceedingly harsh limitations.

That is not a case of "it's just a small difference between what you discuss and we discuss".

This is a fundamental issue to the core of the game design. It permeates the entire product, and it is one of the worst aspects of the game, that I maintain I need to rightly criticize.

Suggesting you can fix this by simply... ignoring what the feats do and the limits they alleviate... feels so reductive and unconstructive.

If we aren't allowed to criticize any game rules simply on grounds on "you can simply not use it if you don't like it" then you don't allow any meaningful critical discussion of any game ruleset ever.

Of course we must be able to say that Paizo's balance is derived in a large part on the assumption players and GMs obey the multitudinous niggling senseless little restrictions. Pointing this out to prospective players - without defending or dismissing it - is valuable consumer information.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
This whole argument @CapnZapp is trying to make is just so steeped in broad-generalities and stupid minutiae that it is borderline incoherent. We can't actually be specific about which feats do what, but we're going to complain about the basics of movement and why you can't just immediately break them?
No I have started several threads and written countless posts on a large number of issues, oftentimes providing suggestions for fixes and workarounds.

You dismissing all of it as "borderline incoherent" just tells me you aren't genuinely open to the prospect of PF2 being a deeply, deeply flawed game; a game whose design is extreme in a surprising number of regards.

You clearly don't want to listen.

I can only hope that for each person that chooses to deny their chosen game having deep flaws, there exists two persons that are saved a big headache by only going into PF2 knowing what they will be getting.
 

Nilbog

Snotling Herder
No I have started several threads and written countless posts on a large number of issues, oftentimes providing suggestions for fixes and workarounds.

You dismissing all of it as "borderline incoherent" just tells me you aren't genuinely open to the prospect of PF2 being a deeply, deeply flawed game; a game whose design is extreme in a surprising number of regards.

You clearly don't want to listen.

I can only hope that for each person that chooses to deny their chosen game having deep flaws, there exists two persons that are saved a big headache by only going into PF2 knowing what they will be getting.

I've never known one person have such a crusade against a game, did Paizo run over your cat?
Everyone knows you think the game is flawed, and to you it is. What you don't seem to be grasping is that other people aren't experiencing these flaws.
why not put your effort into building a system that works for you, you'd save yourself a lot of frustration
 

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