Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder 2E or Pathfinder 1E?

CapnZapp

Legend
AND LFQW has been a problem for ages! (note, can't comment on 4e). If it was an easy problem to fix, it would have been fixed earlier. Finding another good solution might be *very* challenging.
Actually I don't think so.

The real problem has always been to confess to yourself that it really is a problem, and fixing it is worth fighting the conservative segments of the player base.

Actually, I don't think the actual mechanics are very difficult to solve at all. I think the real reason this took so long is because it was so hard to let go, and having the courage to change it despite knowing how conservative ttrpg:ers can be.

In that sense maybe it couldn't be done without WotC facing a catastrophe. If 4E had done better, maybe the drive to truly evolve would have been smothered by cautiousness once again.

That 5E was such a huge success meant the outrage drowned in the influx of new customers, which made it an easier buy.

Just look at these forums and how they've changed since 3E. If you or I dare to criticise even a small part of 5E loads of people reflexively jump to its defense, no matter how indefensible it is. Which suggests we have a new Holy Writ, and it will be decades until WotC is ever again able to meaningfully take a step forward with their game design... :-/

The wait for edition 5+ is gonna be a long one, certainly if Paizo really is failing to step up (and everything about the PF2 playtest indicates that to be the case...) Sigh.
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
Unless it has been changed, I believe that PF2 will require that spellcasters will require using at least one of their three actions per round to maintain a concentration spell.
This sounds cautiously promising, if it really means you can sustain three spells at most (if you don't do anything else).

Of course, the real question will be what spells require Concentration in the first place.

Remember, 5th edition didn't just introduce Concentration as a mechanic. They also ruthlessly and unsentimentally applied it to almost every spell that buffs or debuffs. This is why the impact to the 5E play experience is so pervasive.
 

To me, it is clear WotC is a victim of their own success.

There is nothing that says relaxed magical constraints would destroy 5th edition, but now they've tied themselves to the mast with their "the PHB is like holy write - not a single sentence can be improved" stance.

I have given up hope WotC will ever improve their game. At least until the lead devs get replaced. Which I don't see happening soon - the current situation is exactly how Hasbro wants it: lots of profit with a miniscule team.

They're not about to rock the boat just to please veteran gamers. In fact, they still dream of turning the D&D brand into a social media sensation and ultimately into a Marvel or Disney: with movies and merchandise, where the real money is.

Thinking like a ttrpg:er? Nope. It's suits and brands all the way. They aren't interested in providing a satisfying experience for veteran gamers.

This I can agree with their stance that nothing is wrong with the mechanics infuriates me beyond belief. It doesn't help that a large part of the fanbase thinks WOTC can do no wrong and that if we add any complexity or new classes that it will automatically turn into broken 3.5. The longer I have played 5e the more dissatisfied I am with some of the mechanics like the overzealous use of concentration(I think concentration is a great limiter, but they have relied to heavily on it) , or the nonexistence of crafting and downtime rules, or the lack of a real skill system that you can get better at(it's weird to me that adventurers pretty much don't pick up any new skills on their way to becoming demi gods), or the lack of attunement slots scaling with proficiency. All these problems have only grown rather than diminished the longer I have played and DMd.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
This I can agree with their stance that nothing is wrong with the mechanics infuriates me beyond belief. It doesn't help that a large part of the fanbase thinks WOTC can do no wrong and that if we add any complexity or new classes that it will automatically turn into broken 3.5. The longer I have played 5e the more dissatisfied I am with some of the mechanics like the overzealous use of concentration(I think concentration is a great limiter, but they have relied to heavily on it) , or the nonexistence of crafting and downtime rules, or the lack of a real skill system that you can get better at(it's weird to me that adventurers pretty much don't pick up any new skills on their way to becoming demi gods), or the lack of attunement slots scaling with proficiency. All these problems have only grown rather than diminished the longer I have played and DMd.
Add to that their direction AWAY from gold.

Instead of supplying a decent effort of a magic item pricing framework... :-(

... they're about to answer the complaint "gold is worthless" with... "What gold? Here, have a treasure point."
 

Add to that their direction AWAY from gold.

Instead of supplying a decent effort of a magic item pricing framework... :-(

... they're about to answer the complaint "gold is worthless" with... "What gold? Here, have a treasure point."

I forgot about that, but yeah that is rolled into my complaints about downtime and crafting is what do I do with all the gold.
 

Staffan

Legend
This sounds cautiously promising, if it really means you can sustain three spells at most (if you don't do anything else).

In practice it will likely be two spells, since most spells take two actions to cast and once you have two spells up you only have one action left. Barring quicken-type shenanigans, of course.
 

They obviously aren't using DnD-like (including PF etc) game mechanics.

Or maybe they do, and their loss of hit points is just invisible to you.
No, they're using HP mechanics very similar to D&D, and the loss of HP is visible to everyone watching. You can see Captain America get stabbed, and it doesn't affect his greater mobility, because he has enough HP left to keep fighting. That's just how heroic characters work. I don't know why this is weird for anyone.

The flow of a fight in an action movie or comic book works very similarly to D&D, taken at face value. There's a lot of missing, because the target dodged or parried, which is their Dexterity bonus at work. Sometimes you get a solid hit on someone, and they're fine, because they were wearing armor. You have to draw blood on someone several times over a course of the fight before they fall down. You can narrate every action in a fight scene as though it was an attack roll in D&D, and it makes sense; which is great, because being able to narrate the outcome of an attack roll, as though you're watching a fight scene, is exactly the point of having such detailed mechanics in an RPG. The rules of an RPG exist to tell us what happens in the narrative, and complex rulesets exist to reduce ambiguity.
Why? Because arguing that each hp lost means blood was drawn simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
It holds up far better than any alternative, although that varies somewhat with game and edition. Fifth Edition is uniquely terrible in that there is no consistent interpretation for what's going on; so even though it does have literal rules which declare beyond a shadow of a doubt that even 1hp of damage must necessarily draw blood in every case, there's no way to reconcile that with other parts of the system. It's pretty much a garbage fire of a game, at least in that aspect.
 

Sorry but now you're thinking like a player and not a game designer.

If you roll a die, and 19 times out of 20 nothing happens, that's just sucky game design.
As a game designer, imagining myself to be a player for the sake of understanding how the game will play out, I absolutely don't want the mechanics to dictate that a character is bad at whatever thing they're supposed to be good at. There are plenty of games where you try to build a competent marksman, and the mechanics dictate that you'll still fail to hit a barn door more than half the time. Those are bad games. I didn't sign up to play Keystone Cops. Early D&D was notorious for this, with the Thief class that had a pitiful chance to do anything.

If combat in Pathfinder was nothing but one character on the receiving end of 20 arrows, then you might have a point. As it stands, the tank being targeted is a fairly small part of the over-all session. When it does come up, I expect the tank to succeed at their task, in much the same way that I expect the rogue to successfully disable any traps we find. That's the entire reason why we brought them along in the first place.

Armor Class matters for non-specialists. The ranger has a better AC than the wizard, and while neither of them should be on the receiving end of too many attacks, that's exactly the kind of unpredictable situation where we'd expect the variance of the die to matter. The ranger might be able to pick a lock, of the rogue is indisposed, and that's why we bother tracking all of these numbers. But one a specialist is operating in their area of specialization, they should succeed an overwhelming majority of the time.
 

GreyLord

Legend
As a game designer, imagining myself to be a player for the sake of understanding how the game will play out, I absolutely don't want the mechanics to dictate that a character is bad at whatever thing they're supposed to be good at. There are plenty of games where you try to build a competent marksman, and the mechanics dictate that you'll still fail to hit a barn door more than half the time. Those are bad games. I didn't sign up to play Keystone Cops. Early D&D was notorious for this, with the Thief class that had a pitiful chance to do anything.

If combat in Pathfinder was nothing but one character on the receiving end of 20 arrows, then you might have a point. As it stands, the tank being targeted is a fairly small part of the over-all session. When it does come up, I expect the tank to succeed at their task, in much the same way that I expect the rogue to successfully disable any traps we find. That's the entire reason why we brought them along in the first place.

Armor Class matters for non-specialists. The ranger has a better AC than the wizard, and while neither of them should be on the receiving end of too many attacks, that's exactly the kind of unpredictable situation where we'd expect the variance of the die to matter. The ranger might be able to pick a lock, of the rogue is indisposed, and that's why we bother tracking all of these numbers. But one a specialist is operating in their area of specialization, they should succeed an overwhelming majority of the time.

Which D&D are you talking about?

Early D&D (or OD&D) if you wanted a character to sneak past a guard it was DM's choice. In many games that meant a Dexterity check.

If the character was a thief, they got that dexterity check ON TOP of their other checks.

Just because one wasn't a thief did not mean that they could not actually use their ability scores to try to sneak past, steal, climb up a cliff with a rope, or multiple other items.

It was a later iteration that caused players to think this way (as it did not really notate this in 1e so some really weird people had a rule that a fighter could not walk quietly and could not climb things and other such crazy notions).

This got further reinforced with 2e...

But luckily nothing in the rules PREVENTED ability score checks (and prior to Non-weapon proficiencies ability score checks were actually encouraged, similar to how 5e handles many of it's skill systems, but less structured).

However, 3e I think sort of made this an even worse exaggeration of skills and such and it only started to change with 4e (which handled things similar to 5e but all around with a +5 to skills in general (instead of the +2 to +6 proficiency spread).

Your idea doesn't really hold water with the early thief class and how it was handled...though it probably holds water with LATER AD&D 2e and especially 3e.

As far as making the Thief a marksman...the crazy thing that people expect now is that some untrained lackey is going to have the same ability as a trained warrior. That a soldier is going to be just as proficient at hitting a mark as a guy that spends his days buried in a book, or a burglar who spends his time sneaking around.

Early D&D didn't have this ridiculous illusion of everyone is equally good with weapons and that a marksman who actually was a MARKSMAN (aka...a fighter that is trained in weapons and combat rather than some guy who uses weapons in his spare time adventuring but otherwise is a priest or a bookworm) and would hit better than others.

At level 10 he probably could hit an AC10 target pretty consistently. Even one who was at 5-7th level could probably hit an AC10 target pretty consistently, and probably hit their mark more often than others.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
Yeah, I really don't recognize myself in any of this.

D&D is a game. Games have meaningful interactions.

The idea that if a fighter parries a blow, or if a thief picks a lock, that should succeed pretty much automatically just because they're trained at what they do... is incomprehensible to me. Talk about entitlement!

No no no - the game's spectrum of results should be just wide enough for the trained fighter to stand a great chance of parrying that blow while the thief might just fail to do so. A Ranger should be able to pick that lock... but stand a greater chance of failing (=taking longer).

Why even pick up dice if all you want is "rolling a d6, succeeding on 1 through 6"?

And no, "rolling a 1 is always an automatic failure" is not good enough.

In fact, that brings us back to what was trying to say previously: the ends of the die outcomes should pretty much always be open... that is, reaching a success on 17 or 18 should be considerably more difficult/expensive.

That's pretty given. Makes for a much better game, with smoother probabilities and therefore much easier to balance.

The whole point of giving the fighter 140 hp is precisely so he has no cause for complaint when the goblin manages to stab him for 4 damage.

Again, if you want your character's defense to be 99.9% solid, where each 4 damage always means the same amount of hurt, I refer you to games where you still have the same 12 hit points you started with at the end of a long campaign (or close to it).

And even there, it really does not apply if said game allows you to keep fighting at peak efficiency up until you lose your last hp. (If going from 12 to 8 hp means nothing, the clearly that stab did not damage you nearly as much as the stab that takes you from 3 to -1 hp)

You really need to look into more involved games (maybe Hârnmaster) where each hit point lost represents a tangible penalty, which is the same for the first and last such hp lost. Only problem is: games like that - games that approach realism - aren't very popular, since it's so very difficult to remain heroic when you have huge penalties to everything you do.
 

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