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Savage Pathfinder Pathfinder Adventure Paths Are Coming To Savage Worlds!

Pinnacle Entertainment Group has announced that it will be bringing Paizo's Pathfinder adventurer paths to Savage Worlds, starting with Rise of the Runelords. They will be launching a Kickstarter in January 2021.

The Kickstarter includes a core ruleset called Savage Pathfinder, and a Rise of the Runelords boxed set.

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 PRESS RELEASE



It’s Thanksgiving here in the United States. For our international friends, that’s a time when we come together as friends and family and tell everyone what we’re thankful for.

Today, Pinnacle Entertainment Group is INCREDIBLY thankful to our good friends at Paizo for letting us play in their amazing world of Golarion, setting of the phenomenally successful Pathfinder Roleplaying Game!

Following the incredible reception we had with Kevin Siembieda’s phenomenal world of Rifts®, we’re bringing Pathfinder’s fantastic Adventure Paths to the Savage Worlds™ system, starting with the best-selling Rise of the Runelords™!

The Kickstarter begins mid-January, 2021, and will feature the Savage Pathfinder core rules, a boxed set with all the usual Savage Worlds accessories, AND the Rise of the Runelords boxed set with all six books of the Adventure Path and other deluxe accessories!
 

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Russ Morrissey

Russ Morrissey

All I know is Savage Pathfinder gives me a version of Pathfinder I can play without having the mind numbing headache that Paizo Pathfinder induces in me.
That's fair. I would also much rather play Savage Worlds than Pathfinder.

One of the guys in our group offered to run a 3.5 campaign just before COVID. I sat down to make a character, and after flipping through the book for 10 minutes I got a feeling that I can only describe as "taking a test you didn't prepare for". There were a billion choices and I knew none of them really mattered, but that it would take me a few hours to do them all. I'm not sure if it was skill points or the declining BAB or the number of situational modifiers or remembering class balance, but I was not in to it. I went to next session with a mostly built character... and it turns out everyone else felt the same way. Even the guy who offered to DM. We all forgot how dense the game was.
 

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Doctor Futurity

Adventurer
As much as I've been negative about PF2's implementation on Roll20, I can say that it is doable. It's not nearly as full-featured as it is with 5e, and not as good as the implementation on Fantasy Grounds.
On Roll20, if you look at the character sheets when you create your game, you can find that there are many games you can play on there. If don't need full automation you can even play boardgames. I've done either test games or short campaigns with WEG's Star Wars, Old School Essentials, Swords & Wizardry, and Savage Worlds. Now you will want your books at your side to run them, but it can work.
Some games just don't require a lot of infrastructure to enjoy....in fact with CoC I have used only the free quickstart as the underlying compendium, because all I actually need is my print copy of the Keeper's Guide to run games on Roll20. But when I started with Roll20 I went in with PF2E first and it became clear that the compendiums made life as the GM much easier. It wasn't until much more recently that I tried D&D 5E with compendium support and noticed how much nicer the 5E charactermancer was (it's like night and day).

The guy who created the Pathbuilder 2E android app should go work for Roll20 to upgrade the PF2E character sheet into a working charactermancer to rival 5E. His app proved it can be done.
 

Retreater

Legend
The guy who created the Pathbuilder 2E android app should go work for Roll20 to upgrade the PF2E character sheet into a working charactermancer to rival 5E. His app proved it can be done.
Yes. That app has been a lifesaver. I wouldn't dream of playing the game without it. My players who are on iPhones call me to make their characters for them.
 

That's true. I'm giving our Old School Essentials DM a hard time because he requested we use attack matrices (for a more authentic experience). Now for him every attack roll is a complicated "let's figure this out" moment.
The death of attack matrices and saving throw charts were one of the things my 1E veterans were thrilled to move on from. I love OSR stuff, but I have no patience for systems without a unified resolution mechanic nowadays.
 

Sir Brennen

Adventurer
I was running a one-shot, pre-published adventure with nearly zero prep time available. So much for "fast, furious, and fun" when you can't do that with the system, right?
[...]
So pages 81, 83, 117 would all need to be bookmarked? Plus the stats for all the different opponents? Plus the adventure? Plus having access to the website to convert damage to wounds?
You didn't mention you were running Savage Rifts. That adds some more complexity to the rules. But not a lot.

You're also making my suggestions seem more complex than they are. You can bookmark if you need to. Or just remember/make a note of the page number the first time you look it up during play, if you feel you'll need to reference the information again. Some of those pages I mentioned were to help with the apparent missing vehicle stat block, which won't normally be the case. The tables on pg 117 are also on the GM Screen inserts, if you have those.

Or wing it. Ignore the tables. You're allowed. If an NPC vehicle takes Wounds without going out of commission, just reduce it's speed or something. Apply it's Wounds as a penalty to attacks.

How many games do you not need the stats for the opponents? You did mention the adventure didn't have stats for these mega-vehicles. That's not great, but an omission in the adventure text doesn't reflect on the system as a whole. And while I don't have Savage Rifts, I can't imagine it doesn't have some vehicle stats you could have used to approximate. Just find one, jot down what you think the Toughness/Armor should be, and move on.

Of course you'll need to reference the adventure you're running. The adventure or the core books will have the stats for opponents, so this kind of doubles up on saying you need opponent stats, as well.

You don't need the website, just, if you are having problems calculating raises, have some sort of reference. The chart I linked to could be printed out.

Again, all this depends on how familiar you are with the rules, which your mentioning not being sure if vehicles are just one Wound like Extras suggests you aren't completely. But if you are, I've found the game is pretty fast, though obviously YMMV.
 
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Retreater

Legend
Bookmark if you need to. Again, depends on how familiar you are with the rules, which your mentioning being unsure if a vehicle are just one Wound like Extras suggests you aren't completely
I knew they weren't 1 Wound. I assumed they would have the same number of wounds as Huge enemies (which they still brought down in one character's turn). After it was clear the characters could one shot a tank, I got out the chart, tracking various conditions, system failures, which had operable weapons, etc. I had to infer from crashing damage and failed piloting checks what a character could do damaging a vehicle.

How many games do you not need the stats for the opponents?
Yes, but the opponents also refer you to other books for 3-4 different types of weapons spread across multiple books, some melee, some autofire, some grenades. And then you have armor, power armor suits, mechs they are driving, etc.; spells, psychic abilities.

There is no way Savage Rifts is a simpler system than 5e. It's at least up there with Pathfinder. Not that it's bad, just wanted to keep folks' expectations in check that a Savage Pathfinder might not be less complex than original Pathfinder.
 

Sir Brennen

Adventurer
There is no way Savage Rifts is a simpler system than 5e. It's at least up there with Pathfinder. Not that it's bad, just wanted to keep folks' expectations in check that a Savage Pathfinder might not be less complex than original Pathfinder.
For any game system that supports multiple genres, I think which genre you're playing in that system will factor into complexity. And Rifts is kitchen sink sci-fantasy, almost like you're playing multiple genres at once.

I've played hard sci-fi, vaguely steam-punk horror, weird west and straight medieval fantasy with Savage Worlds (plus some genres from one-shots I'm probably forgetting). The fantasy game was pretty close to just the core rules, and felt a lot simpler/faster than the 3.x D&D game I was playing at the time.

I'm hoping Savage Pathfinder doesn't add a lot of new rules to core SW, but is just a primary book with setting info, and then converting classes (where needed; not all classes do), monsters, spells, etc. Then only the APs which use the core book. Maybe a monster compendium. I think this will keep the game from getting as complex as the original Pathfinder.

I don't want it to be like Savage Rifts, which currently has 33 different products listed in the PEG store (granted, not all are rule books, but still.)
 
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ElRojo

Villager
... the core resolution mechanic of SW becomes immensely unappealing to me. Why? Because of it's math bug.

For those unfamiliar with Savage Worlds: the standard target number in the system is a 4. When you roll an 8 or better, that's called a "raise" and it indicates one extra success or an extra degree of success. The math bug is that it's easier to roll an 8+ on an exploding d6 than it is to roll an 8+ on an exploding d8. Traits of d6 and d8 are extremely common, and a d8 trait is supposed to be an explicit improvement on a d6 trait. The d6 should always be worse than the d8, and it isn't when rolling for one of the most important target numbers.
...

The 'math-bug' in SW has always been a deal killer for me.

I don't understand how people have found it tolerable to play with such an obvious mathematical error in the games skill progression...

It got me to swear off the game after one session.

I like that PF1 adventure paths are being made for a non-d20 system, but SW?

In SW defense, people seem to like it anyway.
 

Reynard

Legend
The 'math-bug' in SW has always been a deal killer for me.

I don't understand how people have found it tolerable to play with such an obvious mathematical error in the games skill progression...

It got me to swear off the game after one session.

I like that PF1 adventure paths are being made for a non-d20 system, but SW?

In SW defense, people seem to like it anyway.
The error is less than a single percentage point. I would guess people don't mind because it barely ever shows up and not in any way that is glaringly obvious to the casual user (especially since player characters and wild cards always roll an extra d6 anyway).
 

The error is less than a single percentage point. I would guess people don't mind because it barely ever shows up and not in any way that is glaringly obvious to the casual user (especially since player characters and wild cards always roll an extra d6 anyway).

Yeah. The glitch is minor and pretty much invisible in play.
 

The error is less than a single percentage point. I would guess people don't mind because it barely ever shows up and not in any way that is glaringly obvious to the casual user (especially since player characters and wild cards always roll an extra d6 anyway).
No, it's more than a percentage point because a d8 is supposed to be better than a d6, not equal to it. After all, improving your trait should not only not make them worse, it should actually make them better! TN 8 on a d8! is 1 in 8 or 12.5%. TN 8 on a d10! is 3 in 10 or 30%. TN 8 on a d12! is 5 in 12 or 41.7%. TN 8 on a d4! is 1 in 16 or 6.3%. TN 8 on a d6! should be like 9%, but it's actually 5 in 36 or 13.9%.
 

The 'math-bug' in SW has always been a deal killer for me.

I don't understand how people have found it tolerable to play with such an obvious mathematical error in the games skill progression...

It got me to swear off the game after one session.

I like that PF1 adventure paths are being made for a non-d20 system, but SW?

In SW defense, people seem to like it anyway.

I still play SW quite happily. The combat in the game is super swingy and it reinforces the pulp feel. I just don't like heroic fantasy and pulp action together.
 

Superchunk77

Explorer
No, it's more than a percentage point because a d8 is supposed to be better than a d6, not equal to it. After all, improving your trait should not only not make them worse, it should actually make them better! TN 8 on a d8! is 1 in 8 or 12.5%. TN 8 on a d10! is 3 in 10 or 30%. TN 8 on a d12! is 5 in 12 or 41.7%. TN 8 on a d4! is 1 in 16 or 6.3%. TN 8 on a d6! should be like 9%, but it's actually 5 in 36 or 13.9%.

You didn't factor in the wild die, which all PC's and wild cards get to roll. For a TN of 8, the differences between a d6 and a d8 is less than 1%. In addition, the TN of 8 is the only TN where this decrease occurs. So this so called "math bug" is all but imperceptible in play. If you were dealing with "Extras" the difference is slightly higher at 1.4% as you noted but again, that is a very low probability AND it only applies to Extras.

TND4D6D8D1012
1100.00%100.00%100.00%100.00%100.00%
295.79%97.21%97.91%98.35%98.61%
383.26%88.86%91.65%93.31%94.42%
462.38%75.01%81.20%84.97%87.50%
549.91%55.49%66.71%73.37%77.80%
632.28%30.47%47.93%58.31%65.36%
727.05%30.47%37.50%49.99%58.41%
819.26%25.79%24.58%39.71%49.80%
916.67%20.91%22.16%28.92%40.73%
1012.61%15.91%18.29%17.51%31.23%
118.48%10.76%14.36%15.01%21.26%
124.29%5.49%10.34%11.53%10.89%
134.29%5.49%8.82%10.56%10.89%
143.46%4.59%6.88%9.16%9.80%
152.62%3.68%4.91%7.75%8.71%
161.79%2.77%2.93%6.31%7.57%
171.32%1.85%2.47%4.89%6.45%
180.77%0.92%1.82%3.44%5.32%
190.67%0.92%1.63%2.45%4.63%
200.49%0.77%1.36%1.39%3.87%
 

Sir Brennen

Adventurer
You didn't factor in the wild die, which all PC's and wild cards get to roll. For a TN of 8, the differences between a d6 and a d8 is less than 1%. In addition, the TN of 8 is the only TN where this decrease occurs. So this so called "math bug" is all but imperceptible in play. If you were dealing with "Extras" the difference is slightly higher at 1.4% as you noted but again, that is a very low probability AND it only applies to Extras.
Not to be too pedantic, but the difference on your own table is 1.21%, so more than 1%. And a d8 has a lower chance of succeeding on a TN 8 than a d6.

For comparison, going from d10 to d12 is a 10% bump. That kind of increase is what most people are expecting when they improve an attribute or skill, not to actually drop a percentage point for a commonly desirable roll outcome. I can see where this might bug some people.

And by "commonly desirable roll outcome" I mean a TN 8 is the same as trying to get a Raise on the default TN 4. A Raise is something that does come up quite a bit in play, affecting damage output, power effects, Soak rolls, among other things.

I mention all this as an avid SW fan.
 

Superchunk77

Explorer
Not to be too pedantic, but the difference on your own table is 1.21%, so more than 1%. And a d8 has a lower chance of succeeding on a TN 8 than a d6.

For comparison, going from d10 to d12 is a 10% bump. That kind of increase is what most people are expecting when they improve an attribute or skill, not to actually drop a percentage point for a commonly desirable roll outcome. I can see where this might bug some people.

And by "commonly desirable roll outcome" I mean a TN 8 is the same as trying to get a Raise on the default TN 4. A Raise is something that does come up quite a bit in play, affecting damage output, power effects, Soak rolls, among other things.

I mention all this as an avid SW fan.
My bad, I got the decimal places mixed up. But as it stands, the perception from the players will likely remain that a d8 is better than a d6. So yeah, it's a bug in the math, but does it really impact play in a perceptible way? From my experience as a SWADE GM it doesn't even come up. Hell, I never even knew about it until it was brought up in this thread LOL.
 



Noting that Tails of Equestria uses the same kind of die-scaling, but a different kind of "open end," one which preserves the superiority of the d8...

In SW (all editions) max on the die is roll again and add.

In ToE, max on the die is roll 1 die of the next higher size and keep the higher of the two.

That said, SW has one thing that ToE doesn't... a bonus for beating the TN by 4+ ... The infamous "Raise"...

That raise means that the d6 shooting for TN 8 is 1/6*5/6, but of those 5/36, only 1/36 gets a raise. with 3/216 of 2 raises.
D8 is 1/8 for the 8+... but 5/64 of ≥1 raise, and 1/64 of two raises.
5/64 > 1/36, 1/64 > 3/216
The d8 increases the chances of exceptional results at the cost of slightly lower chances at key TNs.
 

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