Pathfinder OGL/3.5 RPG system from Paizo

[Mark Hope]

I expect we'll see a great amount of success for this project initially, but in the long run support for D&D will only be increasing as new gamers come into the hobby and 4E gets its own house in order. Non 4E compatible D20 games are going to decline sharply come June and keep heading in that direction.

I'm concerned about this as well (although I am supporter of Pathfinder and am utterly thrilled about the announcement.) In the end, though, we don't know for sure that non-4e D&D games are going to die off. Pathfinder have a share of the market and there's no inescapable reason that they can't grow that market share. It's a challenge for them, to be sure, but they have made a good name for themselves and we may well see them able to capitalise on that. Look at it this way: they have grown a thriving company with no rules system of their own at all. I'd say that there is a damn good chance that things will get better for them in the long term, not worse. Only time will tell.

 

[buzz]

You've made an error there.

Paizo's not selling me a new RPG. Paizo is selling adventures (and ongoing support).

If the alpha doc is any indication, they are indeed selling you a new RPG.

Quite frankly I'd turn the tables on you, there. If 4e didn't have Dungeons and Dragons written across the top, I wouldn't give it the time of day.

Sure, but let me turn the tables again, and posit that, had 3.75 come from WotC instead of Paizo, a lot of the same people who are lauding Paizo now would probably be griping non-stop about WotC's evil empire.

WotC are rebranding Dungeons and Dragons. It's a conscious decision. It's not a wrong decision. But that's the truth. I don't like what the new brand offers as much as I like what the old brand stood for. I'm not complaining. I'm not alone. It is what it is.

Understood.

That said, I still find this issue of "support" kind of bizarre. Were I interested in playing 3.5, there's enough product in existence right now to keep me entertained for probably the next 20 years. That someone suggested the idea of eBay "drying up" is pretty laughable considering you can still buy '80s-era 1e and basic products in mass quantities.

Nonetheless, the alpha doc looks pretty interesting. I'll keep my eyes peeled, despite the odds being nil that my group will ever play it.

 

[BryonD]

But calling the release of yet another almost-D&D "significant"? I'm skeptical.

This statement is about the rules set itself. That misses the point.
The significance is in the big boost in support for non-4E D&D gaming that just happened.

Paizo making their own version of D&D is a smart move. It further makes 3X "their" game moving forward. But that is beside the point to the people who are happy right now.

 

[hazel monday]

Paizo's not selling me a new RPG. Paizo is selling adventures (and ongoing support).

They're giving the RPG away for free, though I am sure I will not be the only person buying the hardcover version (a) to show my support and (b) because glossy hardcover books kick ass, and glossy kick-ass hardcovers from Paizo kick bigger asses harder and longer.

And not to be snarky, but if there was one thing that had me digging in my heels about 4e, it was that it didn't feel like D&D anymore. Quite frankly I'd turn the tables on you, there. If 4e didn't have Dungeons and Dragons written across the top, I wouldn't give it the time of day.

Too true.

 

[BryonD]

Pathfinder is almost-D&D. It's 3.5 with tweaks.

I think there are two major groups you have missed here.

The first is the group of people who don't give a flip about the brand name. They just want the rules set they find best. So whether or not it is "amost" D&D, exactly D&D or something completely new is meaningless to them. It is about a good ruleset being maintained. And, as Wulf so well stated, "support" is about a lot more than more books, it is about a sustained community.


The second group you have missed are the people who feel that D&D and the game assumptions implicit to that name are important and that 4E has made changes that take away that continuity. The rules tweaks are trivial. It is the understanding of the what D&D assumes that Paizo will be holding to moreso than WotC.

 

[buzz]

It's also worth noting that Iron Heroes, Arcana Evolved, and Spycraft don't appear to fill the same niche as Pathfinder RPG.
...
The Pathfinder RPG (at least according to blurbs about Alpha 2 and the already available rules in Alpha 1) appears to be planned as a complete in one volume RPG that is dedicated to being easily compatible with existing D&D 3.5 products.

While Spycraft may have been a stretch, AE and IH are exactly the product you describe in the second paragraph. Assuming that the final release isn't going to be a 600-page book, I'm guessing that you'll still need your old Monster Manuals and such.

 

[buzz]

I think there are two major groups you have missed here.

I was only talking about mechanics, not people.

As for game assumptions, I'm not sure I see how Paizo is going to really involve many of them, as most of the beloved D&D IP isn't available to them under the OGL.

 

[SteveC]

You've made an error there.

Paizo's not selling me a new RPG. Paizo is selling adventures (and ongoing support).

But that's the thing: they are selling an RPG, even if they're effectively giving it away as well. I suppose the more apt term for what they're doing is marketing it, as a vehicle for their other products.

From what I've seen in the Alpha, Pathfinder is not 4E compatible, and it's also not entirely 3X compatible, insofar as you would need to make modifications to myriad of existing 3X materials to use them. For my group, that would be the killer: they rely heavily on the Compete splats, and having to mod them to keep using them would be a non-starter.

So we have another case of "D&D done right," just in this case it's going to have extremely high production values and good distribution. Will that sell? Initially, I'd say yes, after June, I'm doubtful. A year from now, a "3X compatible" product is likely to have an extremely small audience. But time will tell if I'm right, of course.

--Steve

 

[Dragonblade]

To be fair, I think your 4e love is projecting a bit more anti-4e than is really there, as well as understating the numbers quite a bit.

Speaking for myself, it's as simple as this. I want good rules, I want the recognize the game, and I want a community where I can discuss the hobby I love.

Now, I'm prepared to go to 4e, but rather unenthusiastically so. I love the rule changes. I hate the setting changes. I hate the capricious changes. I hate the overall "flavor" of the game-- call it video-gamey, call it anime, call it WoW-ish, call it whatever you want as long as you realize that Tieflings and Dragonborn are not part of my D&D reality.

But again, I was prepared to go to 4e and overlook these peccadilloes because I did not want to be left behind by my hobby community.

Basically, WotC was offering me 2 out of 3.

And now Paizo is also offering me 2 out of 3.

This announcement is significant.

Right now, there is a lot of buzz around it. But there is no difference between this announcement and say the publication of Arcana Evolved. And it will effect WotC about the same way, which is not at all.

Not to get political, but thinking that Paizo's announcement is siginificant is like saying that Ralph Nader running for president is significant.

Bear in mind that Pathfinder is NOT D&D. Or rather its D&D in the same way that Castles and Crusades is, or Arcana Evolved is, or any number of D&D fantasy clones.

Also bear in mind that 4e comes out in less than 3 months now, and Pathfinder doesn't come out for a WHOLE year! By that time, 4e will be firmly entrenched in the market as D&D and Pathfinder will be another 3.5 OGL d20 clone fighting for shelf space with True20 and Exalted. The gamer masses will have long since moved to D&D.

So, who will Paizo attract? They will attract the alternative gamer. The same people that bought AE, True20, McWOD, IH, Conan d20. This will be Paizo's customer base.

And that is not a bad place to be. Thats a good customer base that can support a company like Paizo. Right now Paizo has a lot of buzz, because its a known element. D&D 4 is still a few months off and still an unknown.

But come this time next year, the atmosphere will be markedly different. There will still be excited Paizo fans on the boards. And some 4e fans will likely pick up Pathfinder. I might even, if its cool enough. But ultimately it will have ZERO impact on WotC and 4e.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Pathfinder is almost-D&D. It's 3.5 with tweaks.


Oh, absolutely not.


I'm not denying that, among those companies who are neither WotC nor WW, Paizo is a significant entity. I'm just saying that this is ultimately another variant d20 RPG. Sure, it'll possibly find its niche, just like AE and IH.

With hopefully one major advantage: It's not just a set of OGL variant rules, it comes with adventures - and that's a key advantage over AE or IH, whose adventure support isn't that great (in my experience).