Pathfinder OGL/3.5 RPG system from Paizo

[Wulf Ratbane]

If you think that Paizo is a competitor to WotC, you're fooling yourself. The majority of Paizo's customers will come from the anti-4e minority who were never really going to 4e anyway, and the rest of their customers will come from cannibalizing customers from C&C, True20, Arcana Evolved, Conan d20, and other D&D clones.

To be fair, I think your 4e love is projecting a bit more anti-4e than is really there, as well as understating the numbers quite a bit.

Speaking for myself, it's as simple as this. I want good rules, I want the recognize the game, and I want a community where I can discuss the hobby I love.

Now, I'm prepared to go to 4e, but rather unenthusiastically so. I love the rule changes. I hate the setting changes. I hate the capricious changes. I hate the overall "flavor" of the game-- call it video-gamey, call it anime, call it WoW-ish, call it whatever you want as long as you realize that Tieflings and Dragonborn are not part of my D&D reality.

But again, I was prepared to go to 4e and overlook these peccadilloes because I did not want to be left behind by my hobby community.

Basically, WotC was offering me 2 out of 3.

And now Paizo is also offering me 2 out of 3.

This announcement is significant.

 

[Princesskeyblade]

Congrats Paizo!

I think it is a great move and will be looking forward to what you have come up with.

 

[buzz]

This announcement is significant.

Is it? I mean, other than for Paizo's bottom line, that is.

I mean, timing aside, what is this other than yet another d20 fantasy RPG? Looking at the alpha doc, it's about as 3.5 as Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, or Spycraft/FantasyCraft. (Or even Book of Experimental Might) I.e., you're not going to be using your 3.5 books without at least little massaging.

So, Paizo is targeting D&D players who a) aren't interested in 4e, b) are interested in buying a new D&D-like RPG (as long as it isn't from WotC, apparently), and c) are aware that Paizo exists. I have to assume that Paizo is aware that this is a significant narrowing of their market, but has done the math to know that it's still profitable for them.

I dunno. Paizo are savvy businessmen, so I figure they would not do this unless they felt there was a chance of success. But calling the release of yet another almost-D&D "significant"? I'm skeptical.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

To be fair, I think your 4e love is projecting a bit more anti-4e than is really there, as well as understating the numbers quite a bit.

Speaking for myself, it's as simple as this. I want good rules, I want the recognize the game, and I want a community where I can discuss the hobby I love.

Now, I'm prepared to go to 4e, but rather unenthusiastically so. I love the rule changes. I hate the setting changes. I hate the capricious changes. I hate the overall "flavor" of the game-- call it video-gamey, call it anime, call it WoW-ish, call it whatever you want as long as you realize that Tieflings and Dragonborn are not part of my D&D reality.

But again, I was prepared to go to 4e and overlook these peccadilloes because I did not want to be left behind by my hobby community.

Basically, WotC was offering me 2 out of 3.

And now Paizo is also offering me 2 out of 3.

This announcement is significant.

Wulf nails it pretty well, as usual. But let me add #4 -- I want a game that isn't the sole playground of a single company. I like being able to cherry pick rules and variants that suit my style, and I'm not so arrogant to think that I'm clever enough to come up with the best ones. Having others working from the same base gives me great products.

Paizo is offering that, inplicitly, and hopefully, explicitly. WotC, I don't know. I know the GSL will be less open than the OGL.

 

[JDJblatherings]

Bold and interseting move. Just skimmed the alpha release 1 pdf, and got myself a paizo account for the first time to do so, and it looks good so far.

 

[Psion]

Is it? I mean, other than for Paizo's bottom line, that is.

I mean, timing aside, what is this other than yet another d20 fantasy RPG? Looking at the alpha doc, it's about as 3.5 as Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, or Spycraft/FantasyCraft. (Or even Book of Experimental Might) I.e., you're not going to be using your 3.5 books without at least little massaging.

So, Paizo is targeting D&D players who a) aren't interested in 4e, b) are interested in buying a new D&D-like RPG (as long as it isn't from WotC, apparently), and c) are aware that Paizo exists. I have to assume that Paizo is aware that this is a significant narrowing of their market, but has done the math to know that it's still profitable for them.

I dunno. Paizo are savvy businessmen, so I figure they would not do this unless they felt there was a chance of success. But calling the release of yet another almost-D&D "significant"? I'm skeptical.

I notice you have inserted "almost D&D" between your first paragraph and your last.

Nope. Paizo is not as big as Wizards. Likely never will be.

We know that.

But is Wizards the only player worth noting to you. As a fine upstanding member of the story games community, I would think you would feel otherwise.

D&D players are conscious of Paizo because of Dungeon and Dragon. They are only a tier 2 publisher, but they are a tier two publisher. A tier two publisher whose business plans affects a non-insignificant portion of the hobby. I'd call that significant.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Is it? I mean, other than for Paizo's bottom line, that is.

Yes, it is. They've struck a chord. It may turn out to be a lot of empty buzz (no relation), but you don't really have to look very far to see that the announcement is significant as the word is normally understood.

So, Paizo is targeting D&D players who a) aren't interested in 4e, b) are interested in buying a new D&D-like RPG (as long as it isn't from WotC, apparently), and c) are aware that Paizo exists.

You've made an error there.

Paizo's not selling me a new RPG. Paizo is selling adventures (and ongoing support).

They're giving the RPG away for free, though I am sure I will not be the only person buying the hardcover version (a) to show my support and (b) because glossy hardcover books kick ass, and glossy kick-ass hardcovers from Paizo kick bigger asses harder and longer.

And not to be snarky, but if there was one thing that had me digging in my heels about 4e, it was that it didn't feel like D&D anymore. Quite frankly I'd turn the tables on you, there. If 4e didn't have Dungeons and Dragons written across the top, I wouldn't give it the time of day.

WotC are rebranding Dungeons and Dragons. It's a conscious decision. It's not a wrong decision. But that's the truth. I don't like what the new brand offers as much as I like what the old brand stood for. I'm not complaining. I'm not alone. It is what it is.

I have to assume that Paizo is aware that this is a significant narrowing of their market, but has done the math to know that it's still profitable for them.

Let's all assume they've done the math and move on.

 

[SteveC]

Is it? I mean, other than for Paizo's bottom line, that is.

I mean, timing aside, what is this other than yet another d20 fantasy RPG? Looking at the alpha doc, it's about as 3.5 as Arcana Evolved, Iron Heroes, or Spycraft/FantasyCraft. (Or even Book of Experimental Might) I.e., you're not going to be using your 3.5 books without at least little massaging.

So, Paizo is targeting D&D players who a) aren't interested in 4e, b) are interested in buying a new D&D-like RPG (as long as it isn't from WotC, apparently), and c) are aware that Paizo exists. I have to assume that Paizo is aware that this is a significant narrowing of their market, but has done the math to know that it's still profitable for them.

I dunno. Paizo are savvy businessmen, so I figure they would not do this unless they felt there was a chance of success. But calling the release of yet another almost-D&D "significant"? I'm skeptical.

I have to agree with you, Buzz. As much as I love Paizo, this pretty much ends my buying their products until they do them in 4E.

I am highly skeptical of the Pathfinder rules, from looking at them they seem like a houserules document for 3X, which I'm really not interested in.

I expect we'll see a great amount of success for this project initially, but in the long run support for D&D will only be increasing as new gamers come into the hobby and 4E gets its own house in order. Non 4E compatible D20 games are going to decline sharply come June and keep heading in that direction.

To quote Larry the Liquidator: "do you know the surest way to go broke? Keep getting an increasing share of a shrinking market. Down the tubes, slow but sure. "

Makes me said for Paizo and the hobby in general, but then again it's just my opinion...



--Steve

 

[buzz]

I notice you have inserted "almost D&D" between your first paragraph and your last.

Pathfinder is almost-D&D. It's 3.5 with tweaks.

But is Wizards the only player worth noting to you.

Oh, absolutely not.

D&D players are conscious of Paizo because of Dungeon and Dragon. They are only a tier 2 publisher, but they are a tier two publisher. A tier two publisher whose business plans affects a non-insignificant portion of the hobby. I'd call that significant.

I'm not denying that, among those companies who are neither WotC nor WW, Paizo is a significant entity. I'm just saying that this is ultimately another variant d20 RPG. Sure, it'll possibly find its niche, just like AE and IH.

 

[jdrakeh]

It's also worth noting that Iron Heroes, Arcana Evolved, and Spycraft don't appear to fill the same niche as Pathfinder RPG. For starters, I'm not certain why Buzz mentioned Spycraft -- it's a game of modern Espionage, not fantasy (if it was mentioned for the as yet unreleased Fantasycraft plug-in, well. . . it's as yet unreleased and, thus, irrelevant). Iron Heroes and Arcana Evolved aren't standalone RPGs but, rather, alternate PHBs for D&D 3.5 (you still need the DMG and MM to gather all of the rules for play).

The Pathfinder RPG (at least according to blurbs about Alpha 2 and the already available rules in Alpha 1) appears to be planned as a complete in one volume RPG that is dedicated to being easily compatible with existing D&D 3.5 products. In that respect, it has a leg up on the alternate PHB 'games' because it already contains rules for XP and encounter balancing in one book. It has a leg up on non-fantasy games like Spycraft in that it's much, much, more compatible with standard D&D 3.5 document. And, of course, the obvious edge over as yet unreleased products is. . .

I'm certain that everybody can figure it out