Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

[Dannager]

I'd say that if we graciously presume that only DMs, exclusively, subscribe, and every single one of them has 4 players, then 250,000 players representing THE brand name game in D&D is a real let down.

That's the number of players representing D&D who are also DDI subscribers. It is not a reflection of the total player base.

The fact that 50,000+ accounts are buying into an optional service that is arguably not even complete yet is a pretty strong indication that people want a product like this.

 

[Guest 85555]

Just how many books do you think Paizo or WotC sells on a monthly basis, I wonder?



And when those costs turn out to be way, way less than $6 million on an annual basis?

Also, the "running the company" part is subsidized by all the other things WotC does that aren't D&D. D&D only has to cover its share.

And d&d has daily costs. So long as they have full time people in their d&d department and so long as they hire contractors, there are daily costs that weigh against ddi: it cant be 100% profit.

I do not know what their monthly sales numbers are. But we do know paizo is outselling them. We also know wizards let go of its head of r&d and has made unusual changes to its production schedule.

But i was very surprised by 58k. I assumed it would be much, much higher.

 

[Hussar]

For tools I absolutely agree.

For VTT I don't. If you have six people together then I'd much rather have a real table top. If you can't get together, I can and will play VTT. I've done it. It is a lot of fun. But it is clearly a separate tier of experience compared to be being face to face with people.

So I'm pro VTT and HIGHLY pro online / electronic tools. But anything that takes away from the face to face is a change for the lesser.

I agree with this. Vtt is somethinh i do when we cant get the group together. I also do it to game long distance. But its always my second choice. I would much rather use a real tabletop.

Just to clarify my point with the VTT, I wasn't referring to long distance gaming. I was saying that you could easily have six people in the same room, all gaming together using their smart phones. Instead of having a dry erase board and plastic minis, everyone simply uses the VTT instead.

I'm not really sure how that's taking anything away.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

See, I don't understand this.

Right now, because the DDI is browser based, you could have a group sitting around using their smart phones instead of pens and dice and the game would play EXACTLY the same as it does now. Well, other than people suffering from chronic back pain from lugging around 50 pounds of books every time you want to game.

Add in a VTT, and now you have paperless gaming.

But, the thing is, it's still exactly the same as paperfull gaming, just with less dead trees. All of these electronic tools are just that - tools. They don't actually do anything by themselves. You have a Character database instead of a character sheet, a VTT instead of a Chessex Battlemap (or whatever floats your boat) and so on.

But, you still have six people sitting around pretending to be an elf. Nothing else actually changes.

Yes, I've done all those things and appreciate them. Importanty, though, none of them are necessary. I can still play without all that, or with as much or as little as I desire or need.

But something has changed if it gets to the point where you can't turn off the devices and still play the game. It's one thing if he electronics are tools; replacing dice, books, map and minis with a smart phone is quite possible. But as it is, I can un-proxy those with actual dice, books, map and minis . If the rules (eg, the books) become limited to the cloud, though, I lose that option. It actually becomes impossible to play that game without the glow of a screen somewhere-- along with the accompanying temptation to check your facebook or send a quick text or whatever. Whether that's a problem or not is up to each individual table.

Of course, this all is true of society at large, and certainly not limited to RPGs. I simply will find it sad when that day comes, and will watch it pass me by. Fortunately, there will be other RPG options-- and hopefully players-- that do cater to my tastes. The question is will the leading brands keep me included, or not. It doesn't really matter yet, but 10 or 5 or even 2 years from now it could start making a difference to me, as the direction of the industry exerts increasing influence on the direction of the hobby. At that point, I get grumpy because my kind of players get harder to find.

So is it something the industry needs to consider? Of course not: companies exist to make money, not friends. But it would be nice if we weren't completely shrugged off by the latest and greatest, though I don't really expect any special consideration in that regard.

So be it, and enough. At this point, it's just philosophy. I'm a big boy, and can choose my way over the latest fashion, and deal with the consequences. And I've got the bell bottoms to prove it!

 

[Dannager]

In all fairness, I said "computer-only" entertainment, not entertainment "involving computers".

Is that what we're talking about? I was assuming that this discussion was about tabletop RPG publishers moving to a model where a digital service is assumed to be part of the typical play experience, including the possibility of it being required.

 

[Dannager]

And d&d has daily costs. So long as they have full time people in their d&d department and so long as they hire contractors, there are daily costs that weigh against ddi: it cant be 100% profit.

It's certainly not, but no one is saying that it is. It's almost certain that the day-to-day operating costs of DDI are far outweighed by the money it rakes in on a daily basis.

I do not know what their monthly sales numbers are. But we do know paizo is outselling them. We also know wizards let go of its head of r&d and has made unusual changes to its production schedule.

That's not my point. I was asking you how many (as in, maybe ballpark for me) books you think WotC or Paizo is shipping on a monthly basis, because it is interesting to compare that number to the number of DDI subscriptions WotC has.

But i was very surprised by 58k. I assumed it would be much, much higher.

Why?

 

[Hussar]

Yes, I've done all those things and appreciate them. Importanty, though, none of them are necessary. I can still play without all that, or with as much or as little as I desire or need.

But something has changed if it gets to the point where you can't turn off the devices and still play the game. It's one thing if he electronics are tools; replacing dice, books, map and minis with a smart phone is quite possible. But as it is, I can un-proxy those with actual dice, books, map and minis . If the rules (eg, the books) become limited to the cloud, though, I lose that option. It actually becomes impossible to play that game without the glow of a screen somewhere-- along with the accompanying temptation to check your facebook or send a quick text or whatever. Whether that's a problem or not is up to each individual table.

Of course, this all is true of society at large, and certainly not limited to RPGs. I simply will find it sad when that day comes, and will watch it pass me by. Fortunately, there will be other RPG options-- and hopefully players-- that do cater to my tastes. The question is will the leading brands keep me included, or not. It doesn't really matter yet, but 10 or 5 or even 2 years from now it could start making a difference to me, as the direction of the industry exerts increasing influence on the direction of the hobby. At that point, I get grumpy because my kind of players get harder to find.

So is it something the industry needs to consider? Of course not: companies exist to make money, not friends. But it would be nice if we weren't completely shrugged off by the latest and greatest, though I don't really expect any special consideration in that regard.

So be it, and enough. At this point, it's just philosophy. I'm a big boy, and can choose my way over the latest fashion, and deal with the consequences. And I've got the bell bottoms to prove it!

I don't think there will ever be a time when RPG's go 100% "in the cloud". They might, but, I really doubt it. There will always be room for the "pretty coffee table book".

What I could easily see though, is you get a physical core book(s) and then supplements are all in the "cloud". You can still play the game without the supplements, of course, but, it's the supplementary material that will drive subscriptions.

Really, Paizo is some distance that way already. Yes, you get a very pretty physical Pathfinder module, but, you also get lots of digital goodies as well. It's not too much of a stretch to see the physical module going away and everything going digital, particularly if the modules are directly linked to existing online tools.

The ability to drag and drop monsters directly into a VTT is a HUGE draw, I think, once people realize that you can fully stat out an adventure (never mind character) in a matter of minutes.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

One thing that I believe likely is that WotC may be considering 4e a bit of a failure even though any other company would have been beyond happy with its success.

That they want the sales from both the books 'n' boxes and the online resources - that they did not think that their own DDi might take a bite out of their pen and paper sales.

Failure is relative. They may have wanted to have their cake and eat it too.

The Auld Grump

 

[IronWolf]

The fact that 50,000+ accounts are buying into an optional service that is arguably not even complete yet is a pretty strong indication that people want a product like this.

The 50,000+ count comes from seeing how many members belong to a certain forum, right? Have people confirmed that when someone cancels they are removed from being listed as having access to this forum?

Just curious as to how accurate that number might be or if it is more a count of the number of people that have had DDI at one time and not an actual count of current DDI users.

 

[Jan van Leyden]

The 50,000+ count comes from seeing how many members belong to a certain forum, right? Have people confirmed that when someone cancels they are removed from being listed as having access to this forum?

It has been verified that you are removed from this group once you let your subscription expire or cancel it.