Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder outselling D&D

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Just to clarify my point with the VTT, I wasn't referring to long distance gaming. I was saying that you could easily have six people in the same room, all gaming together using their smart phones. Instead of having a dry erase board and plastic minis, everyone simply uses the VTT instead.

I'm not really sure how that's taking anything away.

For me it means everyone is focused on a different object rather than one common tabletop on the middle of the board. Also my experience with laptops and smart phones is they are too tempting a source of distraction.
 

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It has been verified that you are removed from this group once you let your subscription expire or cancel it.

Cool. I thought I had seen someone in this thread saying they had dropped their sub and were still listed as a member of the group. Maybe some server side job hadn't run yet to remove them from the group.
 

That's the number of players representing D&D who are also DDI subscribers. It is not a reflection of the total player base.

The fact that 50,000+ accounts are buying into an optional service that is arguably not even complete yet is a pretty strong indication that people want a product like this.
I agree that people want that type of product and I expect that form of service to grow over the years.

As to how much it reflects the base, who knows?
I know that there have been multiple sales comparisons between PF and 4E before and a common refrain has been that it is meaningless because DDI has replaced books for the bulk of the 4E fan base. I'm not saying that is true, I'm saying it has been claimed by 4E fans repeatedly.

I presumed that was implicit in your point. If it wasn't, then I retract that part of the rebuttal.

I still see that all signs point toward a significant loss of market share on the D&D brand side. DDI is ultimately just the silver lining. And in this thread it seems to be more a diversion than anything.
 

Just to clarify my point with the VTT, I wasn't referring to long distance gaming. I was saying that you could easily have six people in the same room, all gaming together using their smart phones. Instead of having a dry erase board and plastic minis, everyone simply uses the VTT instead.

I'm not really sure how that's taking anything away.
Ok. Fair enough.

IMO the technology is not remotely at the level where a VTT would provide the same quality as what I have now. But that is subjective and certainly the key point of face to face would be retained.
 

Cool. I thought I had seen someone in this thread saying they had dropped their sub and were still listed as a member of the group. Maybe some server side job hadn't run yet to remove them from the group.

Ayup.

I think that the way that WotC runs is is that they assume that if your subscription expires, it is because you forgot to renew it, and there is a couple of days grace period before you are removed from the group. (I suspect that it is a script set up to run a couple of times a week automagically.) If you cancel your subscription, I have read people say that the removal from the group happens nigh immediately.
 

Because i assumed ddi was being used by a much larger portion of 4e players.

What if the proportion of 4e gamers you guessed are subscribers actually is correct? What would that imply?

But that's certainly one leg of this that is highly speculative. What proportion of 4e players subscribe to DDI is, as yet, unknown to us. I don't think we even have a clue if WotC knows anything significant about that - whether they've polled the market sufficiently to infer that.

We can pretty much infer that 50-odd thousand subscribers means 50-odd thousand people interested in playing 4e (even if they aren't currently doing so). And we can assume it generates something in the neighborhood of $500,000-$600,000 per month. What it costs we can really only speculate at and so we don't have much information on net revenue. I presume it's profitable and probably helps turn big troughs in the revenue stream into a more steady inflow. That's good for WotC. But I have no idea if it also blunts the spikes in the revenue stream that you'd see with regular published offerings and I have no idea how far it cuts into their book sales (I'm reasonably confident it cuts to some extent). As a result, I don't know if the net effect is good or bad or how WotC interprets the results they are seeing.
 

I agree that people want that type of product and I expect that form of service to grow over the years.

As to how much it reflects the base, who knows?
I know that there have been multiple sales comparisons between PF and 4E before and a common refrain has been that it is meaningless because DDI has replaced books for the bulk of the 4E fan base. I'm not saying that is true, I'm saying it has been claimed by 4E fans repeatedly.

I presumed that was implicit in your point. If it wasn't, then I retract that part of the rebuttal.

I still see that all signs point toward a significant loss of market share on the D&D brand side. DDI is ultimately just the silver lining. And in this thread it seems to be more a diversion than anything.

I assume that there has been a significant loss of market share, but for WotC "significant" might mean 5%. No one knows the true number, but based on word-of-mouth, internet exposure, and core sales, I believe that 4e still controls a vast majority of the market (but obviously not as much as WotC would like).

Pathfinder book sales are surpassing 4e sales based on what's selling right now. Distributors say they are moving more Pathfinder products currently, as in single month figures for the most recent months, not total sales across the life of both systems. This is because of the saturation of the 4e market, which Pathfinder obviously hasn't experienced yet, and a lack of new offerings from 4e's publisher.

My argument is that WotC has slowed publishing physical books, because late-system supplements don't sell nearly as well as the core and early supplements, but this time they can move their efforts to a very profitable DDI. While DDI might only represent a small portion of the 4e player base*, it's working out better than late-system economics typically work out for them.

They are still interested in releasing 5th edition, because the start of new editions are where are the real money is, but I believe DDI is making the transition much easier for them economically. For this reason, it will most likely be several years before we see 5th, though they've obviously started working on it already.

*My best WAG is that 1-in-5 regular play groups have a DDI account or use DDI, based on the stores I've been to and the people I've talked with. And that's a pretty high guess for the amount of DDI exposure. In addition, each account probably represents on average 5 players (9 people use our account, but I can see cases where every person in a group has their own account, thus the average). My completely wild guess for the (somewhat frequent play) 4e player base would be about 1,450,000 (on the low side) (58,000 x 5 x 5). At least 2,000,000 is probably a better guess.

In 2006, WotC estimated that as many as 4 million people played D&D regularly in the US (the largest market), thought that number has likely continued to decline. Play D&D: Parents. D&D probably represented around 90% of all tabletop RPG groups in the past, though the number has obviously dipped lower recently.

I suspect that 4e represents at least half of the overall D&D market (versus Pathfinder and earlier editions, as measured by monthly players as opposed to current sales). I believe that 4e almost assuredly has the largest current player base out of every tabletop RPG.
 
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I think that the way that WotC runs is is that they assume that if your subscription expires, it is because you forgot to renew it, and there is a couple of days grace period before you are removed from the group. (I suspect that it is a script set up to run a couple of times a week automagically.) If you cancel your subscription, I have read people say that the removal from the group happens nigh immediately.

That makes sense. Thanks!
 

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