Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder overhaul suggestions, pt. 2

[Wulf Ratbane]

No, because dispel.

Cheers, -- N

I'm not sure I follow your comment, but I addressed that separately: a short-casting time, external buff dispel; and a long-casting time, internal-buff dispel.

The quick-cast version of dispel can't touch internals.

EDIT: It's my "fault" I suppose, but there are several threads running on this.

EDIT: And also, of course, dispel is a debuff, so it is sort of subsumed into the larger rule.

 

[GlassJaw]

This is a great idea.

I think the easiest way to deal with this is to change any conditions/buffs/debuffs that directly affect ability scores. That seems to be where people have the most trouble because changing an ability score affects more than one modifier.

That said, is it really helpful to say that Bull's Strength gives you a +2 to attack rolls, damage rolls, Strength checks, and Strength-based skills instead of just saying you get a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength?

That's really just semantics.

If that's not the desired goal, I think you are looking at rewriting all conditions and spell effects that affect ability scores.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

That said, is it really helpful to say that Bull's Strength gives you a +2 to attack rolls, damage rolls, Strength checks, and Strength-based skills instead of just saying you get a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength?

No, but it is helpful to say that Bull's Strength should have a long casting time, and last for hours. (4e, perhaps, would classify Bull's Strength as a utility spell, or a "Ritual.")

I had edited this in, and then out, of a prior post (trying to keep the discussion focused...), but it's worth mentioning that Brew Potion would have to have the added restriction that it is only applicable to quick-cast spells.

 

[GlassJaw]

No, but it is helpful to say that Bull's Strength should have a long casting time, and last for hours. (4e, perhaps, would classify Bull's Strength as a utility spell, or a "Ritual.")

Relegating ability scores modifiers to long-duration effects only would help.

But what about conditions that modifier ability scores like fatigued, entangled, etc? Those things are always in-combat effects but don't have a specific duration attached to them. They can also persist after combat has ended.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

No, but it is helpful to say that Bull's Strength should have a long casting time, and last for hours. (4e, perhaps, would classify Bull's Strength as a utility spell, or a "Ritual.")

I had edited this in, and then out, of a prior post (trying to keep the discussion focused...), but it's worth mentioning that Brew Potion would have to have the added restriction that it is only applicable to quick-cast spells.

I had done this early on with some of my players to simplify things; if I had an NPC cast a debuff, I told the less-experienced players to just take a -2 to x,y, and z instead of saying 'Drop your STR by 4' and then leaving them to figure out the ripple effect. And if it was something that didn't affect their actions (eg, their AC was lowered), I just told them the essential result and went on.

For Brew Potion, instead of making the distinction as to what can be a potion or not, just change the action type on 'drink potion' to be the same as the spell that it's mirroring. That way you could still have pseudo-alchemy on the part of the players; the standard action potions are as usual, but the 'ritual' ones require brewing, mixing, etc, before drinking.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

For Brew Potion, instead of making the distinction as to what can be a potion or not, just change the action type on 'drink potion' to be the same as the spell that it's mirroring. That way you could still have pseudo-alchemy on the part of the players; the standard action potions are as usual, but the 'ritual' ones require brewing, mixing, etc, before drinking.

I thought about that but ruled it out as a bit silly... That's a long chug.

EDIT: Your explanation makes sense, though.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

But what about conditions that modifier ability scores like fatigued, entangled, etc? Those things are always in-combat effects but don't have a specific duration attached to them. They can also persist after combat has ended.

RangerWicket covered that upthread.

If it is a persistent condition (fatigued) then it can affect ability scores.

If it is not a persistent condition (entangled) then it has to be rewritten to apply only to externals.

 

[Nifft]

That said, is it really helpful to say that Bull's Strength gives you a +2 to attack rolls, damage rolls, Strength checks, and Strength-based skills instead of just saying you get a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength?

That's really just semantics.

Not quite. Think of it this way: there's a box labeled "Power Bonus" next to attack, damage, and ability-based checks. You only get one "Power Bonus". So instead of getting an effective +3 bonus when you have both bull's strength and bless, you just compare +1 to +2, and get +2.

Indirect modification was always a source of stacking, and it's exactly that kind of sneaky stacking which gave rise to the best combinations (e.g. alter self as a source of Natural Armor and ability increases).

Cheers, -- N

 

[Horacio]

They are really good ideas, they go in the sense I wanted Pathfinder to go.
I guess that the strict "backwards compatibility" phiolosophy will rule out this changes, but I hope we will see them in Traiblazer (as Ranger Wicket called it ) or in Wulf's future Pathfinder based books.

 

[Kheti sa-Menik]

Maybe it's me, but the groups I've played with have never had this issue. Maybe the folks I've played with are fairly good at on-the-fly math or whatever (I certainly do NOT count myself amongst those..my math is okay, but I can't complicated stuff in my head without writing it down). Usually, in one of my current campaigns, an NPC lays down a spell like that, and we take maybe 10 seconds if that to recalc then we move on.
But usually, the PCs watch their stuff, the DM keeps track of his peeps. As a DM, I've rarely kept track of effects that the PCs use that boost their own abilities, like Bull's Str or the like. I assume they will mind their own Ps and Qs and be honest. So all I need to worry about is my NPCs.

I've even played in groups with 6 players including me and a seventh, the DM. Never been an issue.

So, from my point of view, I've never seen this as an issue.
Pathfinder ought to fix the dependence on magic items and nerf stick spellcasters.