Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?

[Tony Vargas]

I always disliked the disconnect between power limits encounters/ dailies (especially martial dailies). PF2 solidly bases these limits in the narrative, and for that I am appreciative.

How does PF2 base encounter/daily limits in the narrative of martial abilities?

 

[Count_Zero]

Thank you.

It seems more analysis is needed before a definite conclusion is drawn.

I can't figure out exactly how many points of damage a Fighter can expect to negate by downgrading from Greatsword to Longsword...

...and I don't know if you can expect to simply haul out a new shield each time a new combat breaks out (and the old one got ruined).

I can only say that if a high-level character does four attacks, say, the damage differential you're giving up is at least 16 points, and do you would expect a corresponding +3 shield to negate maybe half that, or 8 points from every incoming attack.

On average! (If the shield can break mid-fight, it obviously must be rated at a higher DR)

Since high-level PF2 fighters very likely can increase DPS much higher than that, this 8 DR number is likely very very low.

Maybe magic shields add twice its "plus" in added DR, or something...?

If you expect the choice between shield and not shield is meant to remain an interesting one at these lofty heights, that is.

PS. Obviously magic shield can't break beyond repair like mundane shields in a game where magic swords never break, or we're back at Captain Obvious territory.

Yeah, the description here is reminding me a lot of how Hackmaster 4e handled armor - which was enough bookkeeping to turn a lot of prospective players off of the game when I was trying to find a group.

 

[JesterOC]

How does PF2 base encounter/daily limits in the narrative of martial abilities?

Good question. I read through the feats and class abilities of the fighter.. and well I only found one that could be considered a daily.
It is a class feature that allows the fighter to practice some old or rarely used abilities (read fighter feats) and become proficient with it until the next day.

Aside from repairing shields and armor and such I found no equievelent encounter powers.

Most all limitations from feats where how often or when you could use a particular feat. Open abilities must be your opening attack, press abilities can be used after another strike has been attempted.
Moves with a flourish can only be done once per turn.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Good question. I read through the feats and class abilities of the fighter.. and well I only found one that could be considered a daily.
It is a class feature that allows the fighter to practice some old or rarely used abilities (read fighter feats) and become proficient with it until the next day.
Aside from repairing shields and armor and such I found no equievelent encounter powers.

So they didn't "base them in the narrative" just took them away. Can't say I'm disappointed, but it'd've been nice to be pleasantly surprised.

Most all limitations from feats where how often or when you could use a particular feat. Open abilities must be your opening attack, press abilities can be used after another strike has been attempted.
Moves with a flourish can only be done once per turn.

Those sound cool.

 

[wakedown]

How does PF2 base encounter/daily limits in the narrative of martial abilities?

It's obfuscated in the rules & hidden to the super casual reader ~ Warped Terrain or Dragon Claws are essentially "per encounter set" but instead as focus powers that recharge in between encounters. Translation: A resource at the GM discretion if it resets or not.

As opposed to 4E which actually printed something as an "Encounter Exploit" or a "Daily Exploit" they went with the same basic premise but PF2E printed it such that the 'exploit' requires a 10 minute non-combat break between repeated use or 6 hours of sleep/meditation vs explicit-hit-you-in-the-face-its-once-per-X.

It's the same thing, but by having their layout person not try to label it "Encounter" it feels like it's closer to being part of a narrative ("oh that tired you out so much, you'll need to wait 10 minutes before you do that again").

 

[JesterOC]

So they didn't "base them in the narrative" just took them away.

I considered using and repairing shields was what I was talking about integrating into the narrative, because if they didn't want shields to be limited to encounters they would not have hit points.

Other classes have spells or other powers that are encounter based as well. But it is easier to establish magic as an encounter power.

 

[Azgulor]

Basically thread title = thread topic but I'll clarify a little bit.

So I'm not asking this just to stir up smiley face emojii smiley face emojii smiley face emojii smiley face emojii but it IS a curiosity question for me. I would describe myself as having "settled comfortably" on D&D 5E, it's what everyone in my area knows how to play and it's good enough that I don't see myself going anywhere even were this thread to somehow convince me that PF2E is the proverbial second coming of Gary Gygax.

That said, the general impression I get about Pathfinder 2E...the very much AT A GLANCE impression I get, is that most people don't like PF2E. Esp. Pathfinder fans. I was curious what's wrong with it (or if you like it, I guess what are percveived to be its flaws) and just how bad the problems were.

(Plz be civil with each other.)

I just got my books yesterday.

I don't know where you're getting your info from, but I'm a PF1 diehard and I'm LOVING what I'm seeing in PF2 so far. Mechanically, it seems a wholesale upgrade of PF1 without losing PF1's ability to have rich character customization and tactical combat, rules language and presentation is cleaned up and clarified significantly, it appears as though it will be much smoother and faster to run, and - where necessary - has taken steps to adhere to its own internal consistency and storytelling logic than adhering to D&Disms for nostalgia's sake.

The proof will be in the playing of the game, of course, but so far this looks like a home run!

I don't care about edition warring and 5e is entitled to its success, but for players and GMs that find 5e lacking the tactical depth or options that they desire, I think there is a new home available for them. (I think 5e is a very good game, but it didn't satisfy my character option or tactical depth requirements.)

 

[JesterOC]

... I'm a PF1 diehard and I'm LOVING what I'm seeing in PF2 so far....

Good to hear, as I did not come from PF1, it is good to hear that at least some PF1 players are happy with it.

...for players and GMs that find 5e lacking the tactical depth or options that they desire, I think there is a new home available for them. (I think 5e is a very good game, but it didn't satisfy my character option or tactical depth requirements.)

This is me, I liked 5e, but over time I have been craving more depth.

 

[CapnZapp]

As someone who played a ton of PFS organized play, it's pretty clear to me where the genesis of a lot of these rules came from. You'd have GM and player strangers sitting at a table and there were tons of players who really worked hard to maximize their pre-buffs.

I was part of at least 50-100 tables where folks were hedging the durations of Divine Favor / Bless / Shield of Faith / Bull's Strength / Cat's Grace or any 1 min/level or 1 round/level buff. A ton of the power builds relied on effectively getting as many stacked buffs up ahead of the first combat or during the first combat and then trying to get through the "dungeon" in as few minutes as possible. Players would routinely point out the first combat only took 3 rounds, and their buff was 10 rounds, and it only took a single round to move to the door and look into the next room, so they should have 5 more rounds on their Fate's Favored/Luckstone infused Divine Favor at 3rd level.

A lot of the PF2 rules look intentionally designed so the GM can somewhat passive aggressively wave off a player trying to perform such buff-stretching by handwaving and saying the rules say it took them 10 minutes to really thoroughly explore that last room and catch their breaths. And the candy they offer to the power gamer for this is telling them they've recharged their encounter power/focus points - which is ultimately the same type of resource these same player were trying to optimize anyway.

I am pleased.

Indeed I remember the "round-bitching" as a wholly unwelcome part of 3.5

It is almost non-existent in my 5E games, so it is good to hear something is done about it in PF2 too

 

[Teemu]

It really is amazing how important perception is. Just by changing the words "encounter" and "daily" to "short rest" and "long rest" respectively, you'll be more likely to attract players.

It is pretty interesting that PF2 seems to have gone the at-will/encounter/daily (or unlimited/short rest/long rest) route. 4e really was ahead of its time!