Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?

[CapnZapp]

I'd argue armor would be more apropos for absorbing damage and a shield for AC, but that's neither here nor there.

Ayup.

That is certainly an alternative, though the longsword damage in the same amount as the greatsword, so the greatsword becomes even more likely to be the weapon of choice because you mitigate a smaller percentage of its maximum. Or, in reverse, with 5 DR, you shutdown 5/8's of a longsword versus 5/12's of a greatsword.

Sorry what? Isn't a hero with a +3 shield facing critters that bite 20, 30 or 50-point chunks?

I mean, we're at the level where your Greatsword buddy sports 8d6 damage. What does five eights got to do with anything?

Another approach would have been to

At this stage, my point is that
a) shields need something or they won't get used
and
b) this is not rocket science. In fact, it's bleedingly obvious

Which makes it kind of hard for me to wrap my head around the claim they had a whole year's worth of playtest and they still ended up publishing NOTHING for shields...?

 

[CapnZapp]

The thing that is supposed to balance that out one handed vs two handed is that AC matters a lot more with critical hits being +10 AC. Meaning when monster attack bonuses get high if you are focused solely on damage at the expense of defense you become a glass cannon who won't survive many rounds of combat

Well you need way more than a mere +2 AC difference for that.

Alternatively, I'm having a hard time envisioning Paizo telling everybody that chose Greatsword "sorry pal but you made the glass cannon choice, you can expect to roll up many new characters..."

Maybe shield feats increase the AC bonus enough that this discussion is entirely unnecessary...

 

[zztong]

Sorry what? Isn't a hero with a +3 shield facing critters that bite 20, 30 or 50-point chunks?

Err yeh, sorry. I slipped back into PF1 thinking there about DR. You're right.

 

[CapnZapp]

Yeah don't sweat it.

I should be able to see for myself soon enough...

 

[Celtavian]

Shields seemed decent for healer types. No one tried a sword and board martial. Using the raise a shield action seemed to pale in comparison to trying a third attack. The 5 point damage reduction isn't high enough to forego swinging for 8 or so damage. Shields do seem like a subpar option unless feats somehow make them capable of mitigating a more impressive amount of damage.

 

[JesterOC]

Beyond the standard shields there are sturdy shields that are nonmagical but the have greater hardness and many more hit points.

Against equal creatures of about equal level (to the shield) they will be useful for many hits in combat. Though it is best to repair them afterwards.

The most powerful of these sturdy shields can handle a couple of 60hp hits in a fight.

 

[Remathilis]

So the PF2e sheet is... Busy? I might be used to the far simpler 5e sheet, but this just feels like too much info. The biggest is all the TEML grids; just make a simple "Prof" box rather than 4 tiny boxes!

 

[CapnZapp]

The 5 point damage reduction isn't high enough to forego swinging for 8 or so damage.

Interesting - so PF2 shields absorb damage, they don't merely add +2 AC like shields have done since the dawn of time.

Damage Reduction X is generally more powerful than +X damage (since 1 point of adventurer hp is generally much more valuable than 1 point of monster hp) so the specific trade-off isn't my immediate concern.

At least they didn't ask the sword and boarder to trade (3d12 - 3d8) for a measly +2 AC!

 

[JesterOC]

They do both.

Just having a shield worn does nothing.

If you use an action to "raise your shield" you gain the passive AC bonus
If you are a fighter or champion you have an ability called shield block that subtracts the shields hardness from the blow and then distributes the remaining damage to you and the shield itself.
Your shield can only handle a few solid hits like that before it is broken. A broken shield can't be used as a shield anymore but it can be repaired (easily done when the wizard is prepping spells in the morning or evening ). If the shield takes twice as much damage that it takes to be broken (really really hard hit) then it is destroyed and can't be repaired.
It is up to the fighter to decide if they want to risk loosing the shields passive bonus by letting the shield get damaged by a shield block.

Standard wooden shields are a bit weak, but good for people who can't shield block since they won't be taking damage,
Steel shields are tougher, then you can buy special shields called sturdy shields that are very expensive (min 100gp) but can take a heck of a beating.

 

[CapnZapp]

They do both.

Just having a shield worn does nothing.

If you use an action to "raise your shield" you gain the passive AC bonus
If you are a fighter or champion you have an ability called shield block that subtracts the shields hardness from the blow and then distributes the remaining damage to you and the shield itself.
Your shield can only handle a few solid hits like that before it is broken. A broken shield can't be used as a shield anymore but it can be repaired (easily done when the wizard is prepping spells in the morning or evening ). If the shield takes twice as much damage that it takes to be broken (really really hard hit) then it is destroyed and can't be repaired.
It is up to the fighter to decide if they want to risk loosing the shields passive bonus by letting the shield get damaged by a shield block.

Standard wooden shields are a bit weak, but good for people who can't shield block since they won't be taking damage,
Steel shields are tougher, then you can buy special shields called sturdy shields that are very expensive (min 100gp) but can take a heck of a beating.

Thank you.

It seems more analysis is needed before a definite conclusion is drawn.

I can't figure out exactly how many points of damage a Fighter can expect to negate by downgrading from Greatsword to Longsword...

...and I don't know if you can expect to simply haul out a new shield each time a new combat breaks out (and the old one got ruined).

I can only say that if a high-level character does four attacks, say, the damage differential you're giving up is at least 16 points, and do you would expect a corresponding +3 shield to negate maybe half that, or 8 points from every incoming attack.

On average! (If the shield can break mid-fight, it obviously must be rated at a higher DR)

Since high-level PF2 fighters very likely can increase DPS much higher than that, this 8 DR number is likely very very low.

Maybe magic shields add twice its "plus" in added DR, or something...?

If you expect the choice between shield and not shield is meant to remain an interesting one at these lofty heights, that is.

PS. Obviously magic shield can't break beyond repair like mundane shields in a game where magic swords never break, or we're back at Captain Obvious territory.