Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?

[JesterOC]

Thank you.

It seems more analysis is needed before a definite conclusion is drawn.

[emoji854]

I'm not advocating that sword and board is better than two handed. From the limited fighter rules I have read, two handed weapons seem pretty amazing, I don't recall any cool abilities on the sword and board side, but there might be something big I am missing.

But I can add two things to the discussion.
1) Shield block is a reaction and you only get one per round so it can only stop one hit.
2) Having a bonus to AC (mostly +2 though some shields can give a bigger bonus) also reduces the chances of being critically hit! Remember that you crit by rolling 10+ over the target's AC. So big heavy armor and heavy shields not only get hit less, they get hit less hard.

 

[Colder]

Another thing: you can take 10 minutes to repair a shield. This is important, because it also takes 10 minutes to treat wounds and to regain focus points.

 

[wakedown]

From the limited fighter rules I have read, two handed weapons seem pretty amazing, I don't recall any cool abilities on the sword and board side, but there might be something big I am missing.

So far most of the players I know who have used shields at any point are more likely to pick a 2H weapon just because they don't want to deal with the mental tax of playing the "shield mini-game" ~ I'm not sure if there's an alternate rule buried in there for "Simplified Shield Rules" where a player can just take a flat AC bonus that is omnipresent vs having to manage the shield mini-game. It'd be great if there was a 75% effective rule with no micro-management and for the players with high capacity who won't slow the rest of the table down, they can play the shield mini-game if they want.

 

[wakedown]

Another thing: you can take 10 minutes to repair a shield. This is important, because it also takes 10 minutes to treat wounds and to regain focus points.

I do think this is something Paizo did right to try to hide some of the 4E "per encounter" mechanics - a number of mechanics that take 10 minutes to reset or apply are effectively encounter powers if the DM allows enough time to rest between encounters.

 

[Parmandur]

So far most of the players I know who have used shields at any point are more likely to pick a 2H weapon just because they don't want to deal with the mental tax of playing the "shield mini-game" ~ I'm not sure if there's an alternate rule buried in there for "Simplified Shield Rules" where a player can just take a flat AC bonus that is omnipresent vs having to manage the shield mini-game. It'd be great if there was a 75% effective rule with no micro-management and for the players with high capacity who won't slow the rest of the table down, they can play the shield mini-game if they want.

I think that's called "playing PF1."

 

[Colder]

I do think this is something Paizo did right to try to hide some of the 4E "per encounter" mechanics - a number of mechanics that take 10 minutes to reset or apply are effectively encounter powers if the DM allows enough time to rest between encounters.

Not to mention that the 10 minute duration is applied to a lot of exploration activities, which means that the action doesn't have to stop completely for someone to get a breather.

 

[wakedown]

Not to mention that the 10 minute duration is applied to a lot of exploration activities, which means that the action doesn't have to stop completely for someone to get a breather.

As someone who played a ton of PFS organized play, it's pretty clear to me where the genesis of a lot of these rules came from. You'd have GM and player strangers sitting at a table and there were tons of players who really worked hard to maximize their pre-buffs.

I was part of at least 50-100 tables where folks were hedging the durations of Divine Favor / Bless / Shield of Faith / Bull's Strength / Cat's Grace or any 1 min/level or 1 round/level buff. A ton of the power builds relied on effectively getting as many stacked buffs up ahead of the first combat or during the first combat and then trying to get through the "dungeon" in as few minutes as possible. Players would routinely point out the first combat only took 3 rounds, and their buff was 10 rounds, and it only took a single round to move to the door and look into the next room, so they should have 5 more rounds on their Fate's Favored/Luckstone infused Divine Favor at 3rd level.

A lot of the PF2 rules look intentionally designed so the GM can somewhat passive aggressively wave off a player trying to perform such buff-stretching by handwaving and saying the rules say it took them 10 minutes to really thoroughly explore that last room and catch their breaths. And the candy they offer to the power gamer for this is telling them they've recharged their encounter power/focus points - which is ultimately the same type of resource these same player were trying to optimize anyway.

 

[JesterOC]

I think that's called "playing PF1."

Be careful, because if a player thinks using an action to use a shield is mentally taxing, PF1 could kill them during character creation.

 

[Parmandur]

As someone who played a ton of PFS organized play, it's pretty clear to me where the genesis of a lot of these rules came from. You'd have GM and player strangers sitting at a table and there were tons of players who really worked hard to maximize their pre-buffs.

I was part of at least 50-100 tables where folks were hedging the durations of Divine Favor / Bless / Shield of Faith / Bull's Strength / Cat's Grace or any 1 min/level or 1 round/level buff. A ton of the power builds relied on effectively getting as many stacked buffs up ahead of the first combat or during the first combat and then trying to get through the "dungeon" in as few minutes as possible. Players would routinely point out the first combat only took 3 rounds, and their buff was 10 rounds, and it only took a single round to move to the door and look into the next room, so they should have 5 more rounds on their Fate's Favored/Luckstone infused Divine Favor at 3rd level.

A lot of the PF2 rules look intentionally designed so the GM can somewhat passive aggressively wave off a player trying to perform such buff-stretching by handwaving and saying the rules say it took them 10 minutes to really thoroughly explore that last room and catch their breaths. And the candy they offer to the power gamer for this is telling them they've recharged their encounter power/focus points - which is ultimately the same type of resource these same player were trying to optimize anyway.

Well, if it is systemized and given narrative form, it eliminates the cheese.

 

[JesterOC]

Well, if it is systemized and given narrative form, it eliminates the cheese.

While I mainly stopped playing 4e due to the onslaught of books and the complexity of mid to high level combat. I always disliked the disconnect between power limits encounters/ dailies (especially martial dailies). PF2 solidly bases these limits in the narrative, and for that I am appreciative.