Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?

[Parmandur]

Are you kidding? Loot drops have always been somewhat problematic. How does the loot get there or come to be in the possession of the creatures you kill? Is the creature intelligent enough to hoard loot of its own intent? If so, what purpose does each piece of it serve? Is it utilitarian (like weaponry) or is it aesthetic (like art)? Or does it satisfy an atavistic impulse toward avarice (dragons and their beds of gold and gems)? If it's utilitarian, is that creature using it against the PCs or to further some project it is engaged in?

If not the intent of the creature (usually because the creature is too dumb), is it "incidental" treasure - something that the creature would have accumulated through predation of whatever comes by or whatever it encounters while on the prowl? If so, does it make sense that PCs would regularly get bona fide, regular upgrades from these treasure drops?

Loot drops and treasure tables frequently break all sorts of verisimilitude - in TTRPGs and computer games, for that matter. How many times did I find health kits by smashing apart wooden crates? Or find hidden stashes of stuff under flickering fluorescent lights? Yeah - they make the game more playable - but they sure as hell don't help verisimilitude.

A really good loot drop would integrate a helpful item in a totally innocuous way that makes it look like there's a backstory for exactly why that item is there without directly making it obvious that it's useful for a particular challenge later. Some of the Paizo APs are pretty damn good at this with a few well-placed items that totally made sense where they were and were potential life savers in later chapters.

Exactly: to be fair, this is DM side information, and with a live running the game, player versimillitude need not be broken: but the loot treadmill feeling is not to my taste.

 

[Azgulor]

Except, the PF2 item level system, isn't a "loot drop" system. As I outlined previously.

 

[Campbell]

Here's my take : providing a GM with more information is always a good thing. It is up to them to use that information responsibly when they are designing scenarios.

 

[Aldarc]

Are you kidding? Loot drops have always been somewhat problematic.

But it's nothing that unusual or outside of the typical parameters of D&D over its past forty years. Randomized loot tables are hardly something that video games invented to spite immersion. They have been an enormous, if not influential, part of D&D. Randomized loot is often something that the OSR movement extols as a virtue of the system.

If so, does it make sense that PCs would regularly get bona fide, regular upgrades from these treasure drops?

Usually that depends on whether the players are fighting tougher monsters, who have themselves accumulated better stuff.

Loot drops and treasure tables frequently break all sorts of verisimilitude - in TTRPGs and computer games, for that matter. How many times did I find health kits by smashing apart wooden crates? Or find hidden stashes of stuff under flickering fluorescent lights? Yeah - they make the game more playable - but they sure as hell don't help verisimilitude.

IMO, you are not so much describing a problem of loot tables, but of player object interaction. In an ARPG like Diablo, for example, breaking things is frequently the primary method of interacting with the world (apart from fighting). You don't go rummaging or looking carefully through crates; you smash them. Some of the random gear is connected to the game world: e.g., you find weapons in weapon crates and on weapon racks.

A really good loot drop would integrate a helpful item in a totally innocuous way that makes it look like there's a backstory for exactly why that item is there without directly making it obvious that it's useful for a particular challenge later. Some of the Paizo APs are pretty damn good at this with a few well-placed items that totally made sense where they were and were potential life savers in later chapters.

Which will likely continue based upon what I heard about how they are writing adventures and integrating player rewards going forward. (I.e., there will be unique adventure-specific loot not part of the DMG.)

 

[Remathilis]

The Starfinder system, as described, bears a strong similarity to video games I have played (it give ame bad Hellgate: London PTSD flashbacks, particularly).

@Remathilis gave his account of the system upthread: this satisfies me as neither a simulation of a Sci-Fi/Fantasy world, nor good narrative form. Hence, versimillitude is not there.

I will add that I have no idea if the PF2e system resembles the Starfinder one, but the Starfinder one to me was very gear treadmill and didn't grab the feel I wanted from SciFi. Starfinder gear felt out of sorts with a lot of traditional sci-fi; Han with his vest and blaster, Starlord with his twin lasers and rockpack/helm, or Kirk with his phaser and devilish charm. To me, it emulated Halo, Mass Effect, Anthem, or Destiny; a game were you were expected to ditch your old guns and swords for "advanced" guns and swords on a semi-regular basis. I realize D&D in general (and 3.x/PF in specific) has a similar problem with the acquisition of magical loot and the idea that you junk your +1 cloak when you find a +2 cloak, etc. But the feeling on the Starfinder table seemed to exacerbate the feeling by making it look so obvious on those large tables.

As to level not affecting item acquisition, I feel the need to point out "...the game assumes that in typical settlements you can find and purchase anything with an item level no greater than your character level + 1, and at major settlements items up to your character level + 2." So unless your DM drops loot three levels or higher, you're never going over 1-2 levels, above your character level. Its completely possible that your character could be 5th level and have a lvl 1 armor and lvl 10 melee weapon, but the game assumes you are probably going to have gear around your level +/- 2.

(It also comes out with some mahooey about why a 1st level PC with a million credsticks can't buy a level 20 rifle by saying merchants won't sell to just anyone without connections and reputation).

So I'm just saying that PF2e hopefully refined the process and learned from SF's weaknesses (esp the page-long tables) because the last attempt at level-based items Paizo did was absolutely gamist.

 

[CapnZapp]

A tabletop RPG is supposed to present a believable world, where the players have complete freedom to go anywhere they want, so why wouldn't they just take some easy (low-level) missions and grind away until they can afford end-game equipment?

Thankfully the answer is simple:

Exponential wealth by level.

 

[CapnZapp]

That is a hell of a lot better than ... "figure it out by the gold piece value".

*shrug*

I consider it trivially easy to switch between "level 19 item" and, say, "125,000 gp".

So I'd say either works.

At least both are a hell of a lot better than 5E's abomination, a travesty of a solution: rarity based pricing.

An adventurer cares if his pointy stick kills monsters better. He's not a collector who values things by how many there are.

 

[CapnZapp]

Thanks for the analysis. The S&B did better than I would have thought.

But a more likely fight for us is a party of 6 characters fighting 1 boss. Assuming a Wizard and a Cleric this leaves 2-4 melee types. What puts the boss down faster? The Cleric will keep whoever tanks on their feet.

No, if the Cleric handles any amount of incoming damage, the equation has a trivial solution: max everything on damage, so the Boss dies faster.

The only reason to care about defense is if you need to. If your heroes risk dying before the job is done.

So if a shield represents a meaningful difference in the Cleric's workload, only then does the interesting part start.

 

[CapnZapp]

In the Playtest we never really saw a Cleric get a chance to unleash a powerful attack. It was a given that a Boss was clobbering somebody each round and that the Cleric was going to be putting them back together.

But your numbers do illustrate that a character with both a 2H and S&B options would be handy, though trying to keep both options up-to-date in terms of magic items might be hard, depending on the DM, perhaps "Resonance"-like rules, and who knows what else.

Another difference between PF and 5E.

(You don't *need* a healer in 5E. It sure is nice to have, but you can still be successful without one)

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Thankfully the answer is simple:

Exponential wealth by level.

If that was all there was to it, then Starfinder wouldn't have needed to include a caveat about vendors not selling high-level goods to low-level characters.

It shouldn't be an issue with PF2, since high-level items are probably rare and/or magical, but it doesn't jive with any sort of believable post-industrial society where you can just order things on the internet.