Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?

[Campbell]

Here's the thing saying something is like some video game does not tell us anything useful about it. It would be more useful to tell us why you think it is bad for the game.

 

[Parmandur]

Either way, it's a shallow criticism.

Truth is often prosaic.

 

[Parmandur]

Here's the thing saying something is like some video game does not tell us anything useful about it. It would be more useful to tell us why you think it is bad for the game.

It breaks immersion, drawing attention to the artificial game construct at the cost of versimillitude.

 

[Aldarc]

Truth is often prosaic.

But just because you produced a shallow prosaic opinion does not make it truth. Be honest, Parmandur. It's just a cheap shot lacking substance.

It breaks immersion, drawing attention to the artificial game construct at the cost of versimillitude.

How does this break verisimilitude?

 

[Parmandur]

But just because you produced a shallow prosaic opinion does not make it truth. Be honest, Parmandur. It's just a cheap shot lacking substance.

How does this break verisimilitude?

The Starfinder system, as described, bears a strong similarity to video games I have played (it give ame bad Hellgate: London PTSD flashbacks, particularly).

[MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION] gave his account of the system upthread: this satisfies me as neither a simulation of a Sci-Fi/Fantasy world, nor good narrative form. Hence, versimillitude is not there.

 

[MockingBird]

One of the problems I am having with 5e is a little similar. 5e is very low magic. My players are 8th level and not all of them even have magical weapons*. (I've Been running Tomb of Annihilation). So now in earnest I need to get them something but the last two PCs use an axe and a spear. Well if +1 swords are rare +1 spears are pretty much mythical. If and when they do find those weapons it will totally feel like I just handed them weapons. I have laid the groundwork for a narrative reason to introduce these weapons but it has nothing to do with the adventure itself.

ANYWAY back to Pathfinder 2e. What I love is that weapons become magical due to runes... runes that can be transferred! Presto problems solved. The spear guy finds the body of a fallen knight with a magically flaming sword.. and after a bit of downtime crafting.. his spear is now a flaming spear.

That also means that they can keep their favorite weapons longer, and get them more powerful as time progresses. I love this system for that so much!


*At one point I offered all the players their choice of magic item as a reward, the PC's who don't have a magic weapon chose a +1 shield and a immovable rod. Nice, but it would have been easier if they would have asked for their odd weapon choices.

We a running Tomb of Annihilation as well. I wouldn't sweat the magic item thing too much. I gave my party some magic weapons after they fought the medusa. She had a cache of items from previous adventurers. Honestly that will probably be all they get with exception being whatever they find in the tomb. I'm afraid I might have made them too powerful.

 

[Aldarc]

The Starfinder system, as described, bears a strong similarity to video games I have played (it give ame bad Hellgate: London PTSD flashbacks, particularly).

[MENTION=7635]Remathilis[/MENTION] gave his account of the system upthread: this satisfies me as neither a simulation of a Sci-Fi/Fantasy world, nor good narrative form. Hence, versimillitude is not there.

It's a criticism being used in a manner that precludes video games from having verisimilitude, simulationism, or admirable features. But you have not demonstrated how it fails in simulating anything. Just because something draws you out of immersion does not mean that something isn't simulationist. It means that you were drawn out of immersion. Hence why saying that it's video gamey is an empty criticism that's just meant to serve as a cheap shot.

 

[Parmandur]

One of the problems I am having with 5e is a little similar. 5e is very low magic. My players are 8th level and not all of them even have magical weapons*. (I've Been running Tomb of Annihilation). So now in earnest I need to get them something but the last two PCs use an axe and a spear. Well if +1 swords are rare +1 spears are pretty much mythical. If and when they do find those weapons it will totally feel like I just handed them weapons. I have laid the groundwork for a narrative reason to introduce these weapons but it has nothing to do with the adventure itself.

ANYWAY back to Pathfinder 2e. What I love is that weapons become magical due to runes... runes that can be transferred! Presto problems solved. The spear guy finds the body of a fallen knight with a magically flaming sword.. and after a bit of downtime crafting.. his spear is now a flaming spear.

That also means that they can keep their favorite weapons longer, and get them more powerful as time progresses. I love this system for that so much!


*At one point I offered all the players their choice of magic item as a reward, the PC's who don't have a magic weapon chose a +1 shield and a immovable rod. Nice, but it would have been easier if they would have asked for their odd weapon choices.

Sometimes, you just gotta hand the weapon if that is what is needed to advance the story: give the weapons a story, so they are Destiny. Beauty of a live DM.

 

[Parmandur]

It's a criticism being used in a manner that precludes video games from having verisimilitude, simulationism, or admirable features. But you have not demonstrated how it fails in simulating anything. Just because something draws you out of immersion does not mean that something isn't simulationist. It means that you were drawn out of immersion. Hence why saying that it's video gamey is an empty criticism that's just meant to serve as a cheap shot.

The kind of video game that this system reminds me of lacks versimillitude, so yes. I am saying that I don't like this system as laid out. And it reminds me of certain video games that I don't like. It is what it is.

This is a bizarre bit of historical karmic reversal, but there you go.

 

[billd91]

But just because you produced a shallow prosaic opinion does not make it truth. Be honest, Parmandur. It's just a cheap shot lacking substance.

How does this break verisimilitude?

Are you kidding? Loot drops have always been somewhat problematic. How does the loot get there or come to be in the possession of the creatures you kill? Is the creature intelligent enough to hoard loot of its own intent? If so, what purpose does each piece of it serve? Is it utilitarian (like weaponry) or is it aesthetic (like art)? Or does it satisfy an atavistic impulse toward avarice (dragons and their beds of gold and gems)? If it's utilitarian, is that creature using it against the PCs or to further some project it is engaged in?

If not the intent of the creature (usually because the creature is too dumb), is it "incidental" treasure - something that the creature would have accumulated through predation of whatever comes by or whatever it encounters while on the prowl? If so, does it make sense that PCs would regularly get bona fide, regular upgrades from these treasure drops?

Loot drops and treasure tables frequently break all sorts of verisimilitude - in TTRPGs and computer games, for that matter. How many times did I find health kits by smashing apart wooden crates? Or find hidden stashes of stuff under flickering fluorescent lights? Yeah - they make the game more playable - but they sure as hell don't help verisimilitude.

A really good loot drop would integrate a helpful item in a totally innocuous way that makes it look like there's a backstory for exactly why that item is there without directly making it obvious that it's useful for a particular challenge later. Some of the Paizo APs are pretty damn good at this with a few well-placed items that totally made sense where they were and were potential life savers in later chapters.