Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?

[Parmandur]

That is a hell of a lot better than "use these tables" or "figure it out by the gold piece value".

Is it, though?

 

[zztong]

After reading discussions that speculated that a two handed weapon user vs a sword and board user.
I wrote a little program to try to see what the results would be.

Thanks for the analysis. The S&B did better than I would have thought.

But a more likely fight for us is a party of 6 characters fighting 1 boss. Assuming a Wizard and a Cleric this leaves 2-4 melee types. What puts the boss down faster? The Cleric will keep whoever tanks on their feet.

 

[JesterOC]

What puts the boss down faster?

I think it all depends on the boss. If it has low AC and bunch of hit points, I think the two handed guys have a large advantage. If it has high AC they have a small advantage that might get negated if the cleric job becomes full time healer and keeps him from unleashing powerful attacks on occasion.

 

[zztong]

I think it all depends on the boss. If it has low AC and bunch of hit points, I think the two handed guys have a large advantage. If it has high AC they have a small advantage that might get negated if the cleric job becomes full time healer and keeps him from unleashing powerful attacks on occasion.

In the Playtest we never really saw a Cleric get a chance to unleash a powerful attack. It was a given that a Boss was clobbering somebody each round and that the Cleric was going to be putting them back together.

But your numbers do illustrate that a character with both a 2H and S&B options would be handy, though trying to keep both options up-to-date in terms of magic items might be hard, depending on the DM, perhaps "Resonance"-like rules, and who knows what else.

 

[JesterOC]

Is it, though?

1) yes.
2) if you want prices in gp and items in tables you are in luck, they are in the book as well.

 

[Remathilis]

That is a hell of a lot better than "use these tables" or "figure it out by the gold piece value".

Maybe? I haven't seen the PF2 version, but the Starfinder version was awful. There could have been a lot of reasons for that; the SciFi element not meshing well with D&D-like weapon/armor upgrades, or the fact that magic and tech fill the same roles so the feel interchangeable, or perhaps the terrible way of describing the difference in armor and weapon types, but Starfinder's equipment lists read like a video-game list (like an MMO or Looter/shooter) of upgrades where the only factor of importance is stats. Its impossible to describe (without referring the stats) the difference between a "survival knife" and a "tactical knife" except the latter is 2d4 and level 7. Or why flame guns are level 1 but cryo guns are level 5. Or what makes Freebooter armor II different than Freebooter armor I other than higher stats. A lot of it felt so arbitrary and treadmillish. Hopefully, they have figured out a way to make it work without multiple pages full of weapon and armor charts.

 

[JesterOC]

Maybe? I haven't seen the PF2 version, but the Starfinder version was awful. ... Its impossible to describe (without referring the stats) the difference between a "survival knife" and a "tactical knife" except the latter is 2d4 and level 7. Or why flame guns are level 1 but cryo guns are level 5.

I'm not familiar with how Starfinder did it, but Pathfinder treasure feels much like a standard way D&D has always done it. Tables up front with name, category, gp cost, and page # (I think page # might be new). And then at that page number a full description with all the relevant data again for every variation of that item.

I don't mind having multiple versions of an item whose only difference is increased stats. Bracers of Armor +1,+2,+3 have been around for ages and I see no issue with that. Same with +1 , +2, or +3 weapons, I guess for a Sci-Fi it might feel weird, but then again we have things like the T-800 and T-850, or weapon systems with the designation Mk IV, and Mk V. So not that much of a stretch for me.

 

[Remathilis]

I'm not familiar with how Starfinder did it, but Pathfinder treasure feels much like a standard way D&D has always done it. Tables up front with name, category, gp cost, and page # (I think page # might be new). And then at that page number a full description with all the relevant data again for every variation of that item.

I don't mind having multiple versions of an item whose only difference is increased stats. Bracers of Armor +1,+2,+3 have been around for ages and I see no issue with that. Same with +1 , +2, or +3 weapons, I guess for a Sci-Fi it might feel weird, but then again we have things like the T-800 and T-850, or weapon systems with the designation Mk IV, and Mk V. So not that much of a stretch for me.

I think the problem would be imagining a giant table where all the mundane armors, all the special material armors (dragonhide, adamantine, mithril) and all the magical armors in the game were listed in order of price/level with the assumption that PCs would just buy/get the best armor they could wear and afford for their level. That's what Starfinder felt like. Similarly, a weapon table that would assume that at level 3 you might use a steel longsword, but at level 5 you'll use a vicious battleaxe since it does better damage, but then you'll switch back to longsword at level 7 when you can afford a flametouched longsword which does even better damage or has better keywords. I have no problem with upgrading items in a TTRPG, but it feels so baked into PF/SF that it is mind bending.

 

[Zardnaar]

Back in 2010 or 11 I played houserules 3.5. I ripped out the magic items/market rules and went back to AD&D type handouts.

Players had more items but it reduced the optimisation levels as they couldn't sell junk items and buy the specific ones they wanted. A +1 spear started to look good again instead of being a 1000 gp coupon off what you really want.

 

[Parmandur]

Back in 2010 or 11 I played houserules 3.5. I ripped out the magic items/market rules and went back to AD&D type handouts.

Players had more items but it reduced the optimisation levels as they couldn't sell junkbitens and buy the specific ones they wanted. A +1 spear started to look good again instead of being a 1000 gp coupon off what you really want.

A man ahead of your time.