Pathfinder 2E Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?

[CapnZapp]

Hopefully, they have figured out a way to make it work without multiple pages full of weapon and armor charts.

I expect it works much like... D&D has always worked.

That is, not an issue?

 

[CapnZapp]

Back in 2010 or 11 I played houserules 3.5. I ripped out the magic items/market rules and went back to AD&D type handouts.

Players had more items but it reduced the optimisation levels as they couldn't sell junk items and buy the specific ones they wanted. A +1 spear started to look good again instead of being a 1000 gp coupon off what you really want.

Certainly if they could use that coupon for "anything" as in free picks from the DMG (either because they have teleport and some shop somewhere must have a copy, or because you allow free crafting of magic items)

 

[FowlJ]

So I'm just saying that PF2e hopefully refined the process and learned from SF's weaknesses (esp the page-long tables) because the last attempt at level-based items Paizo did was absolutely gamist.

For what it's worth, upgrading equipment in PF2 bears very little similarity to doing so in Starfinder. In SF, there are armour upgrades available every single level, and over a 20 point difference between the best armour and the worst - you are swapping out your gear pretty much every single level, and you begin to fall hopelessly behind if you try to go without.

In PF2, there are three armour runes that increase your AC by +1, and three more that increase your saves by +1. You probably also want some property runes, to give yourself energy resistance or whatever, but in terms of 'mandatory' upgrades, there are exactly six over the course of 20 levels (none of which require you to actually change your equipment if you don't want to, because you can etch the new runes onto your existing stuff). Special materials also exist, but like special materials in first edition you buy them because you want the properties of the material, not because they are the next 'tier' of equipment.

 

[Parmandur]

For what it's worth, upgrading equipment in PF2 bears very little similarity to doing so in Starfinder. In SF, there are armour upgrades available every single level, and over a 20 point difference between the best armour and the worst - you are swapping out your gear pretty much every single level, and you begin to fall hopelessly behind if you try to go without.

In PF2, there are three armour runes that increase your AC by +1, and three more that increase your saves by +1. You probably also want some property runes, to give yourself energy resistance or whatever, but in terms of 'mandatory' upgrades, there are exactly six over the course of 20 levels (none of which require you to actually change your equipment if you don't want to, because you can etch the new runes onto your existing stuff). Special materials also exist, but like special materials in first edition you buy them because you want the properties of the material, not because they are the next 'tier' of equipment.

That does sound better: the Runic resource system is more attractive than Starfinder (as presented in this thread).

 

[MockingBird]

I was glad 5e went the direction it did concerning magic items and weapons. IMO these items are rare and dont just pop up in some merchants stock. If it does, the merchant doesnt know what he has and will likely end up dead and relieved of the item. I never liked the assumed magic item school of thought. In my experience players enjoy finding these items in old forgotten tombs and dungeons. Each one has a story of how it found it's way there.

 

[Remathilis]

For what it's worth, upgrading equipment in PF2 bears very little similarity to doing so in Starfinder. In SF, there are armour upgrades available every single level, and over a 20 point difference between the best armour and the worst - you are swapping out your gear pretty much every single level, and you begin to fall hopelessly behind if you try to go without.

In PF2, there are three armour runes that increase your AC by +1, and three more that increase your saves by +1. You probably also want some property runes, to give yourself energy resistance or whatever, but in terms of 'mandatory' upgrades, there are exactly six over the course of 20 levels (none of which require you to actually change your equipment if you don't want to, because you can etch the new runes onto your existing stuff). Special materials also exist, but like special materials in first edition you buy them because you want the properties of the material, not because they are the next 'tier' of equipment.

That's what I was hoping was the case, but some of the things this thread eluded to (superior quality shields, item levels) conjured up visions of them adapting Starfinder's "fix" to Pathfinder. Good to know its not the case.

 

[Tony Vargas]

(You don't *need* a healer in 5E. It sure is nice to have, but you can still be successful without one)

Because enemies will totally wait that hour for you to spend a HD.

That does sound better: the Runic resource system is more attractive than Starfinder (as presented in this thread).

Agreed, but I may just have a soft spot for Runes, since I never did get to play RQ as much as I might've liked back in the day.

I never liked the assumed magic item school of thought. In my experience players enjoy finding these items in old forgotten tombs and dungeons. Each one has a story of how it found it's way there.

The two aren't incompatible, you can have 3.x style wealth/level & expected items without the buy half of make/buy, as long as the DM's pretty good about delivering on the item expectations. Really, magic item expectations go all the way back to the way Gygax weighted those random tables. Without 'em, the non-casters fall behind even earlier and more dramatically.

 

[Henry]

For our group, the biggest problem for us in PF2 is something that we know will be in there thanks to the playtest - the continuing problem of spiraling numbers bloat. Thankfully, characters wont be as far apart as in PF1, but there's still that problem that what starts out as +5 and +7s here and there, become +25 and +35 by the high teens of levels. even though the numbers are more consistent, it's still really annoying to deal with the number bloat. We've been playing some 5e for the past year, and the group really seems to like it, and our plan is to keep playing 5e at least until the Gamemastery Guide comes out, with the expectation that there may be discussion of reducing or eliminating the proficiency bonus altogether, and what other considerations need to be made in the system if one eliminates it. if would be a pretty big change.

If not, then PF2 may well not suit us. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[CapnZapp]

Because enemies will totally wait that hour for you to spend a HD.

I'm not sure why you thought snark was an appropriate response.

I wasn't proffering an opinion. I know for a *fact* you don't need a dedicated healer character in 5E because I understand the system. Also, I have tried it and can confirm it in practice.

And no, we don't run an especially carebearian campaign.

 

[CapnZapp]

For our group, the biggest problem for us in PF2 is something that we know will be in there thanks to the playtest - the continuing problem of spiraling numbers bloat.

There's two issues. I can't be sure which one you're complaining about, or if you really mean both.

A) big numbers in themselves. That 99 is intrinsically worse than 9. For example, in a d20+99 roll, the die roll feels fairly pointless.
B) the discrepancy between low and high level. That high level heroes become untouchable by low level monsters