Pathfinder 1E Pathfinder Sneak Peeks (Old thread)

[Sammael]

Energy drain in previous editions meant one of two things:

1) The DM wanted to severely weaken or kill the players and show them who's the boss
2) The DM wanted to relieve the party of some cash by having them go to a church to have their levels restored

Neither of the above options is a sign of particularly good game design. I know that I tended to avoid energy-draining monsters as a DM because of the huge bookkeeping nightmares associated with the application of negative levels and ability drain.

In my own revision of D&D, I also got rid of ability/energy drain and instead turned the two into penalties that (eventually) go away. However, if a character allows the accumulated penalties to drive the attributes to a certain treshhold (-10), the effects are severe:

Certain effects (such as poison) impose attribute penalties, which are usually cumulative. These penalties are temporary, and each day of rest reduces all attribute penalties by 1. However, if the attribute ever reaches -10, the creature is effectively no longer able to use the attribute, which can have extremely adverse effects.

If the Strength attribute reaches -10, the creature can no longer support its own weight and it collapses in a heap of broken bones and torn tissue. It is still alive and can take purely mental actions (although it suffers agonizing pain).

If the Dexterity attribute reaches -10, the creature becomes paralyzed and unable to move. It is still alive and can take purely mental actions.

If the Constitution attribute reaches -10, the creature's body ceases functioning and the creature dies.

If the Intelligence attribute reaches -10, the creature's somatic nervous system ceases functioning and the creature becomes mindless.

If the Wisdom attribute reaches -10, the creature's autonomic nervous system ceases functioning and the creature dies.

If the Charisma attribute reaches -10, the creature loses all sense of self and can no longer make even the simplest decisions on its own. It will remain in the same position until it collapses from exhaustion or directed to take some action.

(Please note that I got rid of the ability score/ability modifier dualism in my games; there are only attributes, which are the same as former ability modifiers, and the game has been restructured to eliminate all references to ability scores. For instance, an allip's touch in my game causes a cumulative -1 Wisdom penalty)

 

[BryonD]

#2 is illegal. There are no bathing rules (for weapons/PCs). If they add them in Paizo books that'd be unique and cool I'd admit.
But otherwise we are in houserule territory.

Read the opening pages of any edition and you will see that there is a big difference between not having an officially published rule for something and it being "illegal".

 

[BryonD]

Seeing as you don't have magic weapons at level 3 (not affordable by Wealth per level unless Monty Haul campaign)

Magic Weapon is an available spell.

 

[Rolflyn]

Except, if you charge in, attacking, and then try to heal afterwards, your fighter dies.

I totally agree with you. If you charge in and attack and heal afterwards, the wisdom-damage allip is a better than the wisdom-drain allip. If you drop it in as a random encounter, the wisdom-damage allip is better.

But does every creature in the game have to support this play style? Can't there be a couple that support a different play style? Can't there be a few creatures that do just plain nasty that the DM has to use appropriately and require varied tactics from the players? I don't even care specifically about the allip, but I for one would like a few. Not many but a few.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Energy drain in previous editions meant one of two things:

1) The DM wanted to severely weaken or kill the players and show them who's the boss
2) The DM wanted to relieve the party of some cash by having them go to a church to have their levels restored

Neither of the above options is a sign of particularly good game design.

Energy drain's purpose was to make pcs afraid of undead, to make them something to be avoided at all costs, to simulate the horror genre, not just to be something else to whack with a sword.

And it was a better game design than capitulating to players who whine because the poor monster hurt his character. Boohoo.

 

[Imp]

I think it's fine to have screw-you monsters, but they should be clearly marked – like, have their CR in red or something – and the circumstances in which they can bring the pain spelled out, as well as their vulnerabilities. 3e-style monster writeups are kind of opaque in this regard. It's one thing to have players go "oh crap I didn't know an allip could do that", it's another thing to make the DM react the same way.

Not particularly married to the allip causing Wis drain vs. Wis damage, though there should be more to differentiate them from shadows in terms of being 3e's/ PF's "My First Ghostly Adversary".

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Not particularly married to the allip causing Wis drain vs. Wis damage, though there should be more to differentiate them from shadows in terms of being 3e's/ PF's "My First Ghostly Adversary".

The babbling and so forth isn't a big enough distinction?

I remember the first time I ran shadows in 3E (Sunless Citadel), I described the way the darkness slid over the ground toward the PCs, its hand reaching for the PCs' own shadows' chest. Freaked them out.

The first time I ran an allip (I remember the encounter, the allip associated with a corpse on a bed in a small room, but not the adventure), I played up the "just plain bat-crap insane" angle. Freaked them out.

I think the allip and shadow are plenty distinct, personally.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

Energy drain's purpose was to make pcs afraid of undead, to make them something to be avoided at all costs, to simulate the horror genre, not just to be something else to whack with a sword.

And it was a better game design than capitulating to players who whine because the poor monster hurt his character. Boohoo.

Because good design in a monster is one the PCs are incapable of ever fighting?

I know this seems alien and bizarre, but there's a middle ground between "A monster that never attacks and just sits there and dies" and "A monster that's never attacked because it always just one-hits the PCs or makes victory so costly that it's completely purposeless."

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I totally agree with you. If you charge in and attack and heal afterwards, the wisdom-damage allip is a better than the wisdom-drain allip. If you drop it in as a random encounter, the wisdom-damage allip is better.

But does every creature in the game have to support this play style? Can't there be a couple that support a different play style? Can't there be a few creatures that do just plain nasty that the DM has to use appropriately and require varied tactics from the players? I don't even care specifically about the allip, but I for one would like a few. Not many but a few.

The allip already requires varied tactics.

You know what? Here. My vocal challenge to everyone who hates the new allip with such a passion:

Describe for me how players would fight the new allip compared/contrasted to how they would fight the old one. Show me where the difference is. Tell us what the huge disparity between the two is.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Because good design in a monster is one the PCs are incapable of ever fighting?

I know this seems alien and bizarre, but there's a middle ground between "A monster that never attacks and just sits there and dies" and "A monster that's never attacked because it always just one-hits the PCs or makes victory so costly that it's completely purposeless."

I've fought hundreds over the years and ran thousands as a dm. Most of the time they were defeated quite succesfully. I don't understand why you think they can't be fought. Range attacks, nukes from the mage, turn undead from a priest or paladin, there are tons of ways to deal with them.