pc classes as enemies

[unan oranis]

I'm about to introduce my players favorite old villain from 3e, a vampire wizard/warrior and his gang of cohorts.

Im thinking of doing these badguys up as full fledged characters in the character generator.

I want them to be special, and shocking - but im worried that:


1. maybe pc vs pc combat isn't as fun as fighting a good stat block monster

2. maybe the badguys would be way too dangerous

3. maybe running 5 character sheets as npcs would be too much work


has anyone done something like this?

any pitfalls to warn me of?

 

[Nifft]

The DMG has some nice class templates, which tell you basically how to turn a monster into an Elite monster-wit-a-class. I've used those to great success.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Shaker]

I'm running a 'duel' like thing, and the thing I realized is that players could probably kill themselves really fast - that is, PC characters do too much damage for their relative HP. So I've come up with a way that the characters have more HP for the fight.

This obviously won't work for all campaigns, but the other thing you can do to 'simulate' that difference is to double their enemy PC HP and halve their damage. (or 3x and 1/3rd, etc)

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

In general what the monster class templates accomplish is to give you an opponent with the hit points and damage output values of monsters along with a limited set of features from a class. There are a few reasons why it is a good way to go.

Monsters are balanced a lot differently than PCs. They generally do a fair amount less damage, at least at the higher levels, and have considerably more hit points. They also generally have a lot less individual powers than equivalent level PCs.

Following that pattern will definitely make combat less swingy. It will also simplify the life of the DM when running them in combat. PCs are expected to face a wide variety of situations and need a variety of powers in order to do that. Monsters generally fight a specific battle in a specific location against one particular set of opponents and thus giving them a dozen different powers really isn't necessary. It just tends to slow the DM down when running them. Likewise giving them PC level damage output means it is quite possible to fell a PC in the first round of combat, possibly before they even get to act at all. Giving monsters a good number of hit points insures they won't go down instantly themselves in most cases plus it relieves the DM from having to deal with having a leader to provide healing, etc.

So that would be my suggestion, base your opponents on monsters with class or functional templates where needed. Lesser opponents can simply use reskinned monster stat blocks with perhaps a bit of power tweaking. You can get a lot of milage out of simply using an interesting stat block and changing the fluff associated with it. It is possible to use DMG NPCs as well, but they do tend to have some of the same issues as full PCs, being rather low on the hit point scale and usually doing more damage than most monsters. Its not as extreme as a true PC and may work fine though.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

I'm about to introduce my players favorite old villain from 3e, a vampire wizard/warrior and his gang of cohorts.

Im thinking of doing these badguys up as full fledged characters in the character generator.

There are about a half-dozen ways to make such a character: you could apply a class template onto an existing creature, you could use the NPC creation rules in the DMG, you could reskin a different monster that has appropriate abilities, you could just find a monster that fits the concept, you could use the monster creation guidelines in the DMG, etc.

Of the options, building an enemy as a by-the-book PC is probably the worst. They'll have too many options for you as a GM to track, they'll have too few HPs and do too much damage with them. They'll have an unfair advantage over the real PCs, as they can safely unload every Daily power in a single fight while the PCs might have already spent some (or want to save them for later fights). There's no good way to identify how much XP they'd be worth. Etc.

Use one of your many other options before resorting to this option.

 

[DracoSuave]

The other thing is the work in vs gain.

If you go through the route of creating a PC character just to fight PCs, then you've done stuff like:

Statted out Attributes and a level progression that the PCs don't interract directly with
Statted out feats, most of which a PC doesn't interract directly with
Statted out skills that a PC doesn't interract directly with
Statted out utility powers a PC doesn't interact directly with
Statted out equipment a PC doesn't interact directly with

What -does- a PC interact with directly? The monster's attacks, defenses, reactions, and other such things. So, you've spent a whole lot of time working on the bits of a monster that aren't important to the PCs, just to get some bits that are.

That's how you had to do things in 3rd edition, but it's truly an waste of your time when they give you the tools needed to simply create the stuff PCs interract with directly.

So, is this guy a controller? Artillery? A soldier? What did he use his magic to -do- in fights, exactly? That's more important and relevant to the players' experience in combat than whether he got his +5 damage from Strength or Intellegence.

 

[unan oranis]

I appreciate that a fully statted up npc is not usually a good idea; but two counter points if I may...

1. It's not hard or time consuming to generate, unlike 3e. I input class, race and then push a button, tweaking if I wish afterward.

2. The real pc's would not normally interact with the feats, skills etc so much as to justify a full on character sheet for the villains... BUT that holds true only for 99% of their enemies whom they will never see again.


These badguys will likely be contesting the group over numerous encounters, skill challenges and political manuevering.

The lack of utility and non-combat details for most monsters is exactly why im thinking of running this "anti-party" as hyper detailed.


The middleground, methinks, is to use the monsterbuilder to develop these enemies so that they are only two or three times more complicated than usual, and hand pick a few magic items to give them a chance at navigating a wide range of situations, like a ring of featherfall that sort of deal.

 

[Dr_Sage]

I see 3 pronlems when using PCs builds to create NPCs, both playtested in DnD and OnLine MMOrpgs:

1 - The PC would rapdily destroy a PC. Initiative , surprise and the like would count too much in my opinion. Many people pointed this before me.

2 - "Real PCs" usually spend some of their resourses (including feats etc.) that are not very effective if they would be "on the other side of the table". Thats include flavor decisions and stuff that increases healing surges and survivability in general. (Durable Feat for example). That would make "DM PCs" more effective in general, focused on "1 big combat".

3- Daily powers would never be balanced, becuse "real PCs" usually have to decide when and where to use them, specially if they have multiple encounters. Let' s be honest: "DM's PCs" would probably aways have their daily stuff ready to unleash.


I have used "DM NPC" and almost killed a party member instantly with a daily power (Hunt's End) and by the same tolken the bastard went down rapidly when focused.

 

[Nifft]

I appreciate that a fully statted up npc is not usually a good idea; but two counter points if I may...

Hey, it's your time. Do as you'd like with it. All we can do is suggest what works best for us. If you can handle four full-complexity PCs in combat, more power to you!

A PC's abilities can go for pages, can include lots of interrupts (some of which pertain to allies), and include a lot of "daily" resources (surges, magic item daily powers, consumable items, etc.). That's a lot of complexity, for very little payoff from the DM side of the screen, since most of those "daily" resources will remain unused.

- - -

Be careful in deciding that any given monster will survive combat with the PCs. Some players hate letting a monster escape, so you'll have to be very creative in planning how it will do exactly that in order to keep your NPC alive and your players from grumbling.

This is also why it may not pay to make them too complex. Instead, plan for every leader-type NPC to escape, and only add complexity to the few that actually make it out alive!

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

Well, I would just point out, as others have hinted, that when it comes to the final showdown, if two bands of PC of equal levels fight each other, there is a a 50% chances that the bad guys will kill your guys. And whoever wins, odds will be that the the tipping points will come very early in the fight.

Actually, unless you purposefully handicap yourself while designing the bad guys, I say your NPCs will have more than a 50% to win. A whole party designed by a single person tends to be more optimized than what several players simply creating PCs they'd like to play can achieve.

If your players don't mind that kind of challenge, it's all good. Just prepare for some of this : ''Arg, if my daily had hit, we would have won...''