PC Defenses fix.

[keterys]

Depends on whether the character gets to improve AC with their stat bumps or get heavy armor, I suppose. There are a fair number of builds that don't and don't necessarily use heavy armor.

Also whether you like the masterwork armor fix approach or not.

 

[deleteme123456]

We're giving everyone Paragon and Robust Defenses for free at 11th and 21st, much like we're giving expertise feats for free at 5th. Players who focus on one defense (e.g. Wand Wizards, Laser Clerics, Rageblood Barbarians) will have some more work to do, but they can take the epic feats if they need to. It's not a perfect fix, but it's a start. All your defenses gain at worst +15 level +6 enhancement +2 feat and +1 ability, which is only +24, but then there's the question of where did they start? Depends on your starting array, and if this encourages a slightly more balanced 18/16/14/13/10/8 instead of 20/16/x/x/x/x, well, that's good in my book.

 

[KarinsDad]

I suddenly realized that a straight set of bonus adds to defenses won't work.

Take the following example:

Same level creature to hit number against: high defense (taken every time plus starting stat 18 plus 2 class), medium defense (taken every other time plus starting stat 14 plus 1 class), low defense (never taken plus starting stat 10 plus 0 class): assuming item gain at levels 3, 8, 13, 18, 23, 28 and not using feats or race bonus and creature is Level +4 against the defense (most monsters average level +3 to level +5 except the Brute).

 1 11 8 5
 2 11 8 5
 3 11 8 5
 4 11 8 5
 5 10 7 4
 6 10 7 4
 7  9 6 3
 8 11 7 4
 9 10 6 3
10 10 6 3
11  9 6 2
12  9 6 2
13  9 6 2
14 10 6 2
15  9 5 1
16  9 5 1
17  8 4 0
18  9 5 1
19  9 5 1
20  8 4 0
21  8 4 0
22  8 4 0
23  8 4 0
24  8 4 0
25  7 3 -1
26  7 3 -1
27  6 2 -2
28  8 3 -1
29  7 2 -2
30  7 2 -2

As can be seen, the difference between best and worse defense at level 1 is 6. At level 30, it's 9. There is no linear way to balance the two because PCs will almost always have a large delta between best and worse and will also often face higher level monsters. At high levels, some PCs will almost always get hit on a 2 and only missed on a 1 versus one or two of their defenses (with core rules).

The delta between best and worse has to be decreased for any bonus math to work.

One example of a solution:

Every defense = average round down of best defense and itself plus add +1 at levels 11, 16, 21, and 26. Non-core feats (like Epic Iron Wind) not allowed.

So, a PC at level one with defenses 16, 14, and 11 would instead have 16, 15, and 13. His same level foes are typically +5 to hit.

A PC at level 30 with defenses 41, 36, and 32 would instead have 45, 42, and 40. His same level foes are typically +34 (or better). Higher level foes are typically +37 or +38 (against low to mid-40 ranges, synergy and paragon feat bonuses are still needed).


This changes various sections of the chart to:

 1 11 9 7
11 10 8 6
21 10 8 6
30 11 8 6

Delta of 4 at level one, delta of 5 at level 30. The best defense is still the best. The worse is still the worse. It's just that the non-best defenses do not fall off the bottom of the D20.

And remember, this is for a same level creature.


But, the real problem here is how large the delta between a good defense and a bad defense starts out and how much greater it can become. 9 is a big chunk of a D20.

Note: Some DMs might feel more comfortable with +1 at 5, 15, and 25 instead of +1 at 11, 16, 21, and 26.


What do you think of this Elric?

 

[Elric]

I suddenly realized that a straight set of bonus adds to defenses won't work.

Take the following example:

Same level creature to hit number against: high defense (taken every time plus starting stat 18 plus 2 class), medium defense (taken every other time plus starting stat 14 plus 1 class), low defense (never taken plus starting stat 10 plus 0 class): assuming item gain at levels 3, 8, 13, 18, 23, 28 and not using feats or race bonus and creature is Level +4 against the defense (most monsters average level +3 to level +5 except the Brute).

For most characters, the majority of stat increases will go to 2 ability scores that affect separate FRW defenses (with perhaps 1-2 points of stat increases done differently for feat prerequisites). So it's typically going to be two defenses losing 4 over 30 levels and one defense losing 7.

As can be seen, the difference between best and worse defense at level 1 is 6. At level 30, it's 9. There is no linear way to balance the two because PCs will almost always have a large delta between best and worse and will also often face higher level monsters. At high levels, some PCs will almost always get hit on a 2 and only missed on a 1 versus one or two of their defenses (with core rules).

The delta between best and worse has to be decreased for any bonus math to work.

The gap eventually gets larger, but it's quite large to begin with. I think it's appropriate for characters to get a little more specialized over those 30 levels. However, characters already start very specialized, because class FRW bonuses tend to reinforce ability bonuses.

One example of a solution:

Every defense = average round down of best defense and itself plus add +1 at levels 11, 16, 21, and 26. Non-core feats (like Epic Iron Wind) not allowed.

Too complicated. Referencing "best defense" when calculating other defenses adds too much complication. A simpler version would be to give +1 to the defense with the lowest associated ability score at level 11 (if two are equal, you get to pick), and have this increase to +2 at level 21. Then give +1 to FRW at levels 5/15/25. Call this extra benefit “Paragon [Epic] Robustness” or something.

If you do this your worst defense only goes down -2 over 29 levels—so simply taking the associated Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes/Iron Will feat would leave you even for your worst defense (and you’re actually ahead until level 27). If you take 2 of those feats, your average FRW defense stays the same over 29 levels, which is the same number of feats required as AC, assuming 1 feat= +1 AC (if you can find 2 feats that increase AC, that is).

I'd try to keep house rules as simple as possible, so I’m not sure that would be worth the complication over just +1 FRW at levels 5/15/25, but if I wanted to decrease the different in good and bad saves across levels, that’s how I would do it.

 

[KarinsDad]

So it's typically going to be two defenses losing 4 over 30 levels and one defense losing 7.

It can be unless the players try to balance out that low defense. The thing I don't like about giving a flat bonus to the lowest one is that it encourages the players to basically continue to dump those two stats.

But, I definitely see your point.

I'd try to keep house rules as simple as possible, so I’m not sure that would be worth the complication over just +1 FRW at levels 5/15/25, but if I wanted to decrease the different in good and bad saves across levels, that’s how I would do it.

Simple is not so simple in this case.

But, I don't really see this as too complicated. If Character Builder prints out:

Fort 22, Reflex 28, Will 25, I just change it to (say +1 at the time):

Fort 26, Reflex 29, Will 27

I can do that for my players real quick each time they level up and most levels, that means adding 1 to all 3 defenses from the previous sheet or not doing so.

 

[deleteme123456]

A fairly simple house rule that doesn't completely close the gap but helps:
Characters get Paragon Defenses free at 11th, Robust Defenses free at 21st, and may choose 1 of Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, or Epic Will free at 21st.

I favor house rules that I can implement with the character builder.

Laser clerics, Rageblood Barbarians, Axe fighters, and a few other odd cases may need a second of the Epic X feats to close the gap.

All your defenses get +2 (not the +4 that they need, but hey, you're level 30, you can take it) and your worst one gets +6. That should leave you somewhere from 1-4 behind on all of them, and there are masterwork armor bonuses, item bonuses, or even the other Epic feats if it's really that bad.

 

[Mengu]

What if neck slot items gave twice their enhancement bonus? Would that be too much? I'm thinking not, but I can't say for sure at lower levels. Obviously I'd ditch all the +x to a defense feats if I went this route, as well as the +x item bonus to a defense AV items.

A +12 necklace may sound a bit silly at 30th level, but looking at the chart, it brings a cleric's reflex defense up from an almost auto-hit to needing 4 to hit. Will defense would go up to where a 13 is needed, which seems reasonable for someone who should have a strong will defense.

 

[Elric]

What if neck slot items gave twice their enhancement bonus? Would that be too much? I'm thinking not, but I can't say for sure at lower levels. Obviously I'd ditch all the +x to a defense feats if I went this route, as well as the +x item bonus to a defense AV items.

A +12 necklace may sound a bit silly at 30th level, but looking at the chart, it brings a cleric's reflex defense up from an almost auto-hit to needing 4 to hit. Will defense would go up to where a 13 is needed, which seems reasonable for someone who should have a strong will defense.

I think it's a little too much. Your two good defenses gain +2 over 29 levels and your bad defense loses -1. Additionally, it would have an effect I dislike with masterwork heavy armors: everyone always wants a vanilla set of armor to get the +1 bonus on the armor's material sooner, rather than taking an armor with other properties. For example, Agile Armor, from AV, is often considered good, but it's in general worse than vanilla armor 1 level higher until you hit level 30 (and there's no +7 vanilla armor to take), which means that you should typically just wait a level and get the vanilla armor instead.

 

[KarinsDad]

For example, Agile Armor, from AV, is often considered good, but it's in general worse than vanilla armor 1 level higher until you hit level 30 (and there's no +7 vanilla armor to take), which means that you should typically just wait a level and get the vanilla armor instead.

I've always been of the opinion that vanilla magical armor should be the only armor. I'm an old grognard, but the concept of having many different layers of features does not appeal to me.

+1 Armor
+1 Armor plus mundane properties (i.e. magical armor with a different name)
+1 Armor plus magical properties
+1 Armor plus mundane and magical properties

I prefer:

+1 Armor
+1 Armor plus magical properties

 

[keterys]

I'm not quite the opposite, but... I don't like the masterwork armors _or_ the vanilla armors except +1. +1 armor is fine, but I don't want +2 armor or +3 armor at all. Just +2 Dwarven or +3 Black Iron, or whatever.