PC Defenses fix.

Bayuer

First Post
We all looking now to Expertise. What with feats that gives PC bonuses to defences. In PHB 2 on epic level you can add +4 to single defence. All my players alwats takes Iron Will, Lighting Reflex, Great Fortitude anyway, couse defenses compared to moster attacks are just too low.

So. This is my solution. Every PC gains +2 to all defenses (not AC) per tier and we ban those feats: Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lighting Reflex, Epic Reflex, Epic Fortitude, Epic Will.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Tequila Sunrise

Adventurer
We all looking now to Expertise. What with feats that gives PC bonuses to defences. In PHB 2 on epic level you can add +4 to single defence. All my players alwats takes Iron Will, Lighting Reflex, Great Fortitude anyway, couse defenses compared to moster attacks are just too low.

So. This is my solution. Every PC gains +2 to all defenses (not AC) per tier and we ban those feats: Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Lighting Reflex, Epic Reflex, Epic Fortitude, Epic Will.
Didn't know about those epic feats, but can't say I'm surprised. I think you're headed in the right direction with your HR, but it could use some refinement.
 

keterys

First Post
I was considering something a little more wacky like

Each defense is tied to an item slot -
Waist = Fortitude
Head = Will
Feet = Reflexes

No matter what else the item does, it also gives +1 item bonus to the defense per tier (+1 at Heroic, +2 at Paragon, +3 at Epic)

So, Acrobat Boots also give +1 item bonus to Reflexes, an Epic Belt of Vigor also gives +3 item bonus to Fortitude, and a Crown of Command gives a +2 item bonus to Will.

Makes people appreciate getting those items just a little bit more, and catches up the difference at the same time.
 


Bayuer

First Post
I was looking at attack bonus of monster when they hitting defenses other than AC and they have +5/+6 at lvl 2-3. Comparing it to the PC defenses they ususally have one very high defense (linked to attacking atribtute) one medium and one lowe (or to medium). This will 14 for high, and 12 for the seconds. You gain +2 or two +1 defenses from class (or +1 to all for human, or paladin). That gives you max 16 in primary defense, the other are unchanged. There, are some variations here but anyway your max defense will be 16 and other lover. That's not good. Your boostet defense gives you a 50% chance of being hit. So this +2 boost is needed.

On paragon the things goes even wors. I was in situations when monster neede to roll 3+ on dice to hit PCs. That's why everybody takes paragon defenses feats. On epic things are almost the same. So why lose feats slots for must have feats. That's my philosophy here.
 

Bayuer

First Post
I was considering something a little more wacky like

Each defense is tied to an item slot -
Waist = Fortitude
Head = Will
Feet = Reflexes

No matter what else the item does, it also gives +1 item bonus to the defense per tier (+1 at Heroic, +2 at Paragon, +3 at Epic)

So, Acrobat Boots also give +1 item bonus to Reflexes, an Epic Belt of Vigor also gives +3 item bonus to Fortitude, and a Crown of Command gives a +2 item bonus to Will.

Makes people appreciate getting those items just a little bit more, and catches up the difference at the same time.
Thats nice house rule. But I think the bonuses are too low.
 

keterys

First Post
Well, let's see... monster attacks rise by 29 from to 1 to 30, and players get 15 from level, 6 from item, leaving 8.

An ability score that gets full investment would regain about 4. One with none would regain 0.

So, 4 to 8 lost. I'm not that worried about the 8 case, but sure, probably want to regain more than +3 if you want to address it completely _and_ remove the feat options. I guess +2/+4/+6 would work in that instance, or giving a +1 to +6 spread just like neck items. Not sure how I feel on removing the feat options.
 

Bayuer

First Post
Actually stat bonus increase too. To +6 in most cases. So that gives us gap of +2/+6 in high ability score and low ability score (or none). At this point we must see if adding +2 per tier isn't too much.

Let's see how it look on 25 lvl.
Monster attack vs. other defenses is +28/27.
Pc higher defense would be around 35 (10 base, 12 level, 7 atribute (or 8 with demigod or 20 in the stat at 1lvl) and max +2 form class (bet lets take 1) and 5 magic). The best configuration gives us 37 (without any feats taken so far). So thats 65/60% chance of hitting you in your best defense! There must be something wrong here.

Lets consider now the lowest defense. It will be around 31 (10 base, 12 level, 5 magic, 4 atribute (in most cases it will be 3,4, lets take higher value). The monster have hitting chance of 90/85% to that defense. Rolling 3 on die...

When we add +6 at epic this will change to 35/30% hit chance into your primary defense or to 60/55% into your lowest defence. I don't know now if this isn't to much. Mabye adding +1 per tier will be better idea. This will give us a 50/45% hit chance and 75/70%. And I don't know if thats still not to much in lover defense.

So maybe the changes should go to +2 on paragon and +4 on epic?
45%/40% hitting chance on higher defense and 70%/65% on lovest defence?

The feats I mentioned before will still be banned from play, well maybe only the epic feats giving +4 to single stat. Iron Will, Lighting Reflex, Great Fortitude will be still an option. But there are still some feats to take. One on paragon that gives +1 feat bonus to all defences and on epic there will be feats giving you +2 feat bonus to single defence and some other bonus.

In current form you must spend for sure 3/4 feats to get 55/55% hit chance from monsters so that is paintfull and this shouldn't be feats issue to make you char average.

I will vote that +6 bonus. If you have build prefering high will you will feel it. The lovest defence will be hit offten but no radiculus 3 on a die hit.
 
Last edited:

keterys

First Post
Actually stat bonus increase too. To +6 in most cases. So that gives us gap of +2/+6 in high ability score and low ability score (or none). At this point we must see if adding +2 per tier isn't too much.

Yeah, that's the +4 to +0 I added... 8 points in a ability score by putting in all of them (excluding demigod), or zero for none.

So, at best 25 vs. 29 (4 diff) and worst 21 vs 29 (8 diff)


I will vote that +6 bonus. If you have build prefering high will you will feel it. The lovest defence will be hit offten but no radiculus 3 on a die hit.
Fair - I'd prefer if the feats were not a 'everyone must have one' kinda thing. Heck, I think I'd prefer if you could only have one... so either a bonus to one defense, or a more scattered bonus to all, but not '3 feat slots are taken cause you desperately want +4 to all defenses'
 
Last edited:

Bayuer

First Post
All this feats give you feat bonus to stat. So you can only add +2 to all you defenses and that'a all. If player want to take all 3 feats why not. They have now choice:)

PS. I will make this changes based on levels. +2 on lvl5, +4 onlvl15 and +6 on lvl25.
 
Last edited:

Elric

First Post
Well, let's see... monster attacks rise by 29 from to 1 to 30, and players get 15 from level, 6 from item, leaving 8.

An ability score that gets full investment would regain about 4. One with none would regain 0.

So, 4 to 8 lost.

4 to 7 lost. Even an ability score you put no level increases into gets +2 for levels 11 and 21. If characters received a free +1 FRW at levels 5/15/25, then assuming you spread the stat points to two abilities that boost different saves, a PC gets +28/+28/+25 to FRW over 29 levels. This is the same average as AC (+27 over 29 levels, assuming you either put stat increases to Dex/Int, or have heavy armor), though your weak defense ends up weaker and your strong defenses slightly stronger.
 


Bayuer

First Post
After some time to think, I decided to not go crazy about the worst defence. If you have good build you can have two defenses at good level. One much lower. I was looking at AC and hit rate.

25 level
vs. AC +30
vs. DEF +28 (+27)

AC
Max is 41 (10 base, 12 lvl, 5 ench, 12 armor (masterwork plate), 2 shield)
Second 39 (without Shield)
The other fall between this.

Attack vs 41 AC have 45% hitting rate. vs 39 its 55%. And I take this as baseline.

DEF
Max. will be 36 (10 base, 12 level, 9 atribute, 5 ench) - I'm not including the class bonus.
But resonable will be 34 (atribute bonus 7 (18 star to 24 (+7)
The lowest stat will be around 31 (10 base, 12 level, 5 ench, 4 atribute)

Attack vs. 34 DEF have 70% hitt rate, vs. 31 85%.
So I think that this should work fine (+1 heroic, +2 on 15lvl, +4 on 25lvl)
This will make hitting into 37 DEF a 55% chance of hitting and into lowest DEF 34 a 70%. Only feats that will be banned are those epic feats that gives +4 to single DEF. Other will be avalible. Now if you take the max. atribute on lvl1 (20) you will end with hit rate into defence linked to that stat at 45%. See some similarities?

Max. AC possible (without any addons) is at 45% hit chance, our max DEF is now too at that level. Average (the most likely) AC/DEF are at 55% hit rate. I think that ther's no better way to make it work in way not braking the game.

The racial +2 is just an additon, superior bonus that shouldn't be calculated at base math. That's why I just ignored it for my calculations.
Off course when you use the best possible atribute, give +2 calas/racial bonus to it, and then take a +2 feat bonus to stat, you will be most likely hard to hit (25%) but as you can see, the chance isn't too low now. 1/4 times you will be hit. But other defenses will be very weak with one drasticly lowe (at 27/28 on that level) so I think it's fine if you choose it that way. That's the final judgment about fixing the DEF bonuses.
 
Last edited:

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Yep, my bad, 4 to 7. Thanks Elric.

Offense loses 4, just like best defense.

So, 4 for offense, 4 to 7 for defense.

Given this, the OPs solution is not that bad on the surface.

However, I do think that with the sheer number of powers that PCs acquire over levels, that the solution should not be as great as the decrease. There are many ways for players to boost offense and defense, and shy of that, heal, etc.

My solution:

+1 to hit and +2 defense (except AC) at Paragon
another +1 to hit and +2 defense (except AC) at Epic

All PCs can use their primary stat for their AC boost in light armor.

The new PHB II offense and defense feats are not allowed.


AC is even screwier than the other defenses. The lowest AC is 8 lower than the highest, but it adds a 0 to +5 stat on it at first level. And heavy armor adds another +6 when going to masterwork that light armor does not. Any class not in heavy armor that does not pump a high Dex or Int every single time is screwed. A sorcerer might as well just throw in the towel and start buying armor proficiencies and get to Chain.

1st level Sorcerer that does not buy armor proficiencies: Dex (or Str) 16 (maybe) = 13 +4 (pumping every level) +6 magic +15 half level = 38.

Without armor feats, this Sorcerer is screwed already. The best level 30 soldier (like an Ancient Red Dragon) should be +37 to hit AC and even creatures like Orcus with +37 and Tiamat with +39 are going to hit the 30th level Sorcerer on a 2. That really is unfun for a player. Once people find this out, very few people are going to play an Epic level Sorcerer. Even their occassional two AC boost spells are not enough. They are forced to take Leather at a minimum.

On the other hand, Godplate and Heavy Shield = AC 47 at level 30 without armor or shield specialization, AC 49 with. These high level foes only hit the Paladin about half of the time, slightly more than that if he uses a two handed weapon.

But, I was unable to come up with a good rule to help Sorcerers beyond allowing their primary Cha stat to affect AC. At least they would be on par with Wizards that way.

Armor at high level with a stat of 26 (without magic or anything else) works out to:

Cloth: 2 + 8
Leather: 4 + 8
Hide: 5 + 8
Chain: 12
Scale: 13
Plate: 14

There is no clean way to boost the Sorcerer without messing with the balance here.
 


Instead of dropping bonuses all over the place I think a more elegant solution would be to boost the ability score increases to +2. This would provide the needed +4 bonus attacks, defenses and light armor AC.

For Heavy armor a simple solution is to add the Agile property from Adventurer's Vault to all masterwork Heavy Armors.

Another benefit of the ability score increase boost is that it also increases some skill bonuses which solves the problem with Skill Challenge DCs.
 

keterys

First Post
That would only catch you up 1 or _maybe_ 2 on the low defenses... but it would catch up potentially _everything_ else. But is dropping around 6 on one defense acceptable? Eh, dunno.
 

Elric

First Post
Instead of dropping bonuses all over the place I think a more elegant solution would be to boost the ability score increases to +2. This would provide the needed +4 bonus attacks, defenses and light armor AC.

For Heavy armor a simple solution is to add the Agile property from Adventurer's Vault to all masterwork Heavy Armors.

Another benefit of the ability score increase boost is that it also increases some skill bonuses which solves the problem with Skill Challenge DCs.

If you increased ability score bonuses to +2, then AC for Dex/Int boosters would scale faster than level, unless you also removed masterwork light armors. Changing level bonuses to 2 would also have a lot of other side effects (e.g., Tactical Presence Warlord's feature, and many other abilities that key off ability scores).

On the other hand, Godplate and Heavy Shield = AC 47 at level 30 without armor or shield specialization, AC 49 with. These high level foes only hit the Paladin about half of the time, slightly more than that if he uses a two handed weapon.

Armor and Shield specialization don't stack.
 

Faster increase in AC for Int/Dex boosters is the point of my house rule.

The added Agile property allows heavy armor users to get an AC boost too.

That other abilities and features get better with an ability score boost is an added benefit as higher attack and damage bonuses on the PC side makes combat go faster at higher levels. This is a good thing as the players will have more fun and feel badass. Check out the Grindspace thread about why high-level combat should be resolved faster.
 


Dungeon Delver's Guide

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top