PC race with a +2 Cha?
- Thread starter Lamoni
- Start date
You'd be only one additional spell-level behind, compared to normal sorcerors, and wouldn't get 9th level spells until ECL20.Lamoni said:
OTOH, picture being able to start with a Charisma of 24 ... and, with a +6 item, at ECL 18, having a 34 charisma. Quite nice, no?
By 12th level, you'll have (with a +4 item) a charisma of 31 and 5th level spells (to the wizard's 6th), and those spells will have a save DC of (10+5+10=) 25, without any spell focus feats.
I also think it would be fun to play a character with very low hit points. I keep thinking of the Brownies from Willow. A brownie sorcerer would be hard to hit, but if you could step on him/her, they would be dead. That is why there is a cleric in the party with raise dead.
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Stormborn
Explorer
Darklone said:
Races being unbalanced and classes beign unbalanced, and how the two work together are seperate issues. If meerly having a +2 CHA makes a race unbalance because it predisposes them to be sorcerers then having a +2 to STR makes the Half-orc unbalanced, because it predisposes them to become fighters.
Hmmm...this isn't really on topic, perhaps something to be discussed in another thread.
Yes, quite nice. That is why it is tempting. Although with a character with no LA and just a +2 Cha, you can always have higher level spells with the DC only two less than the Nixie. I'd rather trade that +2 to DC in for the +1 spell level. Sorcerers are already half a spell level behind the wizard. I don't want him to be 1.5 spell levels behind.Pax said:
The original idea that I had is to play a brownie. Since I don't even know if a brownie is an official race in any of the books and I don't know if they have a +2 to Charisma, I made my own. This should probably be in house rules now, but would you still give this a LA +0?
Can you imagine a brownie paladin riding a toad?
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jgsugden
Legend
Just as a counter point, a search for a race with a +2 Chr but no LA smacks of 'optimization' for a sorcerer.
If you have a good DM, it isn't worth your time to try optimizing a PC. It is like trying to build a tower in quicksand ... the more you build, the more it sinks, and you end up right where you began with nothing to show for it.
A good DM will take into account the strengths and weaknesses of a party when designing encounters and adventures. If you start out with a high charisma, he'll twist things to make it harder to find cloaks of charisma, [wishes] or tomes of leadership and influence. If you do find those, he'll provide easy access to saving throw bonuses for your foes. In other words, a good DM preserves the challenge for the PCs by making sure challenges are balanced and interesting instead of being a cakewalk because you optimized your character.
In my primary game (which I DM), the sorcerer rolled horrible stats. He began with a 15 charisma and no other ability score above 13. His ability scores equated to less than 22 points in the point buy system. The two fighter types in the party each had 18 strengths and multiple other ability scores above 14. The rest of the party was pretty average. As a result, I tended to throw monsters at the party that had weak saving throws, but high constitutions and a lot of hit points. Althouth the fighter types were dealing a heck of a lot of damage, they were not significantly more effective than the sorcerer even though their stat by equivalents were in the 40s and 50s. And it asn't a coincidence that the PCs came across a cloak of charisma +4 at 4th level and a tome of leadership and influence +2 at 8th.
The goal of the game is not to be the most powerful. The goal of the game is to have the most fun. Contrary to many people's instinct, power is not necessarily fun.
If you have a good DM, it isn't worth your time to try optimizing a PC. It is like trying to build a tower in quicksand ... the more you build, the more it sinks, and you end up right where you began with nothing to show for it.
A good DM will take into account the strengths and weaknesses of a party when designing encounters and adventures. If you start out with a high charisma, he'll twist things to make it harder to find cloaks of charisma, [wishes] or tomes of leadership and influence. If you do find those, he'll provide easy access to saving throw bonuses for your foes. In other words, a good DM preserves the challenge for the PCs by making sure challenges are balanced and interesting instead of being a cakewalk because you optimized your character.
In my primary game (which I DM), the sorcerer rolled horrible stats. He began with a 15 charisma and no other ability score above 13. His ability scores equated to less than 22 points in the point buy system. The two fighter types in the party each had 18 strengths and multiple other ability scores above 14. The rest of the party was pretty average. As a result, I tended to throw monsters at the party that had weak saving throws, but high constitutions and a lot of hit points. Althouth the fighter types were dealing a heck of a lot of damage, they were not significantly more effective than the sorcerer even though their stat by equivalents were in the 40s and 50s. And it asn't a coincidence that the PCs came across a cloak of charisma +4 at 4th level and a tome of leadership and influence +2 at 8th.
The goal of the game is not to be the most powerful. The goal of the game is to have the most fun. Contrary to many people's instinct, power is not necessarily fun.
Just like using a Half-Orc smacks of 'optimization' for a barbarian. The no LA should mean that it is balanced. Yes, it has good charisma which would help a sorcerer, but there are other traits that are weaknesses and can be hard for the sorcerer to cope with. I was aiming for a specialized sorcerer that had great spellcasting ability, but could never outrun anyone, would lose EVERY grapple by even the weakest opponents, and had an additional weakness to poison. The penalty to con would make the HP's even lower. Plus the size and strength penalty would mean he could only carry 5 pounds.jgsugden said:
I agree with you. The goal of the game is not to be the most powerful. Although some optimization should be done so you aren't the weakest in the party and therefore useless. Therefore making a Half-Orc sorcerer can work, but you will probably be the weakest member of the party for much of the time. If the LA is +0, that means it should be balanced so the DM doesn't have to go out of his way to penalize the player for picking that race. Penalties are already included. When you give benefits without any drawbacks, you end up with LA +2.
Kahuna Burger
First Post
The frey from the oathbound campaign setting have +2 dex, +2 cha, -2 str and -2 con. they are size small humanoid kitties, if you like the type. they have a base speed of 20 ft but can drop down on all fours and go 30 if their hands are free. tiny little natural weapons, bonuses to listen and jump, no height restriction on jump checks. couple of other bonuse, favored class bard, kinda cute.
I don't buy the idea that non la races shouldn't have bonuses to mental stats, considering how weak mental stats are considered when you're using them to offset physical ones. but thats another subject, sort of.
Kahuna Burger
I don't buy the idea that non la races shouldn't have bonuses to mental stats, considering how weak mental stats are considered when you're using them to offset physical ones. but thats another subject, sort of.
Kahuna Burger
thorian
Explorer
Here is how to get +4 to charisma with no LA:
Star Elf from Unapproachable East: -2 con, +2 cha
Magic Blooded (Spark) Template from Dragon 306: -2 wis, +2 cha
Here are some of the details of the template:
Magic-Blooded (Spark) Template [Dragon Magazine #306, pg. 64]
+2 charisma, -2 wisdom
+2 racial bonus on knowledge (arcana) and spellcraft
1/day: detect magic, nystul's magical aura, nystul's undetectable aura, read magic (caster level equals character level)
favored class: sorcerer (lose whatever favored class you had before)
level adjustment: +0
Star Elf from Unapproachable East: -2 con, +2 cha
Magic Blooded (Spark) Template from Dragon 306: -2 wis, +2 cha
Here are some of the details of the template:
Magic-Blooded (Spark) Template [Dragon Magazine #306, pg. 64]
+2 charisma, -2 wisdom
+2 racial bonus on knowledge (arcana) and spellcraft
1/day: detect magic, nystul's magical aura, nystul's undetectable aura, read magic (caster level equals character level)
favored class: sorcerer (lose whatever favored class you had before)
level adjustment: +0
Will
First Post
It seems fair, to me, to want to play a charismatic or strong-willed character from a race of charismatic or strong-willed people. At least as fair as wanting to play a tough-ass character from a race of tough-ass people, and so forth.
It's also fun to play against type, but hey.
Sometimes I think it'd be nice if the point system just changed maxima, not adjusted things directly. So a -2 race simply maxes at 16, and a +2 race maxes at 20 (but you still have to buy it up).
I dunno, maybe that'd suck...
Ooo! Maybe change the cap and the starting point, but not the costs... so -2 starts at 6, goes up to 16. Getting up to 16 costs a little less than normally going up to 18. Likewise, +2 starts at 10 and goes up to 20, but going up to 20 costs a little more than going to 18 normally would...
It's late.
It's also fun to play against type, but hey.
Sometimes I think it'd be nice if the point system just changed maxima, not adjusted things directly. So a -2 race simply maxes at 16, and a +2 race maxes at 20 (but you still have to buy it up).
I dunno, maybe that'd suck...
Ooo! Maybe change the cap and the starting point, but not the costs... so -2 starts at 6, goes up to 16. Getting up to 16 costs a little less than normally going up to 18. Likewise, +2 starts at 10 and goes up to 20, but going up to 20 costs a little more than going to 18 normally would...
It's late.
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