PCGen - too difficult to use?

[Morik]

I'm just wondering about the way some users of PCGen are saying that the programm is too difficult or not-user-friendly or whatever...

I do not understand this. Although I use PCGen not to often (I use more Steves Sheets and DMFamiliar at the moment, but PCGen too), I cannot say that it is so hard too use.

And really, I'm not such an intelligent human. IMO PCGen would have a difficult time to stand against a full-blown commerical software (like hopefully E-Tools will be) but on the other side this is not the intention of PCGen. It is free software and for this it is very good. The implementation of nearly all DnD Sources in PCGen is unbeatable.

But, on the other hand, I find RPG not so easy to understand at first glance. In fact, I've chosen to leave that one out. And that will probably annoy another user of RPG who will find it an easy programm to use.

Hope this does not sound like a flame...

 

[Morik]

But, on the other hand, I find RPG not so easy to understand at first glance.

Sorry, I meant RPM...

 

[Luke]

Re: Re: PCGen - too difficult to use?

Sorry, I meant RPM...

Not surprising. There is a whole lot more to RPM than character generation, which can make for confusing options.

The alpha version needed a good overhaul, and that's the version you would have seen. Unfortunately, despite the clear "Alpha Feedback Program" label, very few actually bothered to provide the feedback vital for necessary improvements .

The overhaul has happened during the PreBeta, which has been restricted to those who agreed to be testers and provide feedback. It's quite a different program in important ways now, with much improved features.

The results have been very good, and this should hopefully be publicly available in fairly short time now.

Don't worry about flaming. If I don't take any offense, I don't see why anyone else would .

Regards,

 

[Cergorach]

But, on the other hand, I find RPG not so easy to understand at first glance. In fact, I've chosen to leave that one out. And that will probably annoy another user of RPG who will find it an easy programm to use.

Hope this does not sound like a flame...

Off with his head! ;-p

I've been using the pre-beta for some time now, your right, it's not easy to understand (sorry luke). Besides it being a prebeta, it's not a player tool, it's a dm tool, and thus has far more functions/options than any other rpg related program that i've seen (nwn being the sole exception). Will it ever be easy to understand, i don't really think so, at least not if you want to use the full potential of the program. I've found the time spend on understanding RPM rewarding, combats are more structured thanks to this tool, and generally my players are happy with it. When the Beta gets out try it, especially if your a DM...

 

[Luke]

RPM ease of use

Off with his head! ;-p

I've been using the pre-beta for some time now, your right, it's not easy to understand (sorry luke). Besides it being a prebeta, it's not a player tool, it's a dm tool, and thus has far more functions/options than any other rpg related program that i've seen (nwn being the sole exception). Will it ever be easy to understand, i don't really think so, at least not if you want to use the full potential of the program. I've found the time spend on understanding RPM rewarding, combats are more structured thanks to this tool, and generally my players are happy with it. When the Beta gets out try it, especially if your a DM...

This is meant to be a player tool as well. I actually use it to run my own characters in game. I'm constantly coming up with answers for other players, whilst they leaf through book pages. It autocalculates everything for me, including attack, skill, save and spell attempts.

The purpose of RPM is to fulfill the following needs:

- Be an extremely comprehensive RPG program, offering the player, and especially the DM, a wealth of integrated utilities, where you can use as much, or as little as you want.

- To save time: This is by offering quick lookups for required information, and also be calculating things instantly for you. This is especially important in-game, where the computer must do things so efficiently that the time you save on book lookups and calculation means that the computer isn't actually a distraction.

- To serve as a memory aid: This is again by lookups, especially if you have your own adventure entered. The in-game use for keeping track of initiative, turns, repreating previous attack etc are fairly obvious.


Back to "will it be easy to understand":
- Firstly, start off using it for simple things only. There's lots of stuff there, but virtually everything is optional.
- I am getting feedback that the learning curve seems initially daunting, but the consistency in approach lets you master it surprizingly easily.
- Even with the PreBeta, there's been relatively little documentation to date. All I did was add a simple combat tutorial. Given this, the fact that I'm hearing about much improved ease of use should mean that the user interface is a lot better than it used to be. Final judgement on ultimate ease of use should be left until the doco is done as well. Remember, there are a *lot* of variables to D20, so a fully encompassing program (if that's what you want ), will be quite comprehensive.
- Part of the issue is that there's no "right way" prescribing what you should do. My philosophy is:

[ You do what you want, how you want, when you want. What RPM gives you is a way to jump around very quickly for whatever you want to do. ] Examples:
- You can do "out-of-sequence" attacks. This is also how you do attacks of opportunity.
- You don't *have* to run combats as part of an initiative sequenced rounds. After all, if your Ftr7 creeps up on a kobold, why bother? Just run the "Move Silently" check hoping to avoid setting off the alarm, and click a quick attack.
- You can build up the adventure with locations etc on the fly (even with maps - given the very quick TileMapper).
- In the middle of a combat, you can take out a few seconds to build a random encounter group, attracted by the niose. When that's done, you can return to the 2nd swing attack of the Orcish barbarian chieftan. Nothing has been lost or forgotten.
- Also, you can do the things you need to do from almost anywhere. Getting the next initiative creature is a classic example, with the buttons almost eveywhere, if you haven't learned the hot-keys.

Interestingly, I just read an interview from the Project Lead on the NeverWinterNights game. He has almost exactly the same philosophy, with different ways to quickly get done what you need, and anticipates that they've succeeded in their user interface ambitions.
Personally, I don't have the realtime graphics issues of NWN, but I have other serious issues with the better, *full* D&D. NWN is quite definitely a limited subset of the "pen and paper" version of 3rd edition. As an example, I can't see how all the different attack options can possibly be made available, for a realtime graphical interface. Playing in realtime with a mouse and keyboard will call for certain sacrifcies. I've waffled enough, so if somebody wants to challenge me on this, please feel free - it could be interesting...

Regards,

 

[Cergorach]

Re: RPM ease of use

This is meant to be a player tool as well. I actually use it to run my own characters in game. I'm constantly coming up with answers for other players, whilst they leaf through book pages. It autocalculates everything for me, including attack, skill, save and spell attempts.

Ack! There's a DM that let's you have a Laptop at the table. We need to have a little chit-chat with that DM, he has to see the error of his ways ;-)

This is of course a personal preference, but i think that laptops don't have a place at the table for use by players.
1.) It's distracting enough when the DM uses one, i don't even want to think about how distractinf it's gonna be when a player uses one.
2.) A player doesn't need THAT much info at his disposal, he needs his spells, possible the info of some items, and of course background and notes. A player doesn't need to check whether the DM uses the rules correctly, when the DM has to consult a player for some core rules, the dm is doing something wrong (or isn't using RPM).
3.) Usability: I personally think that RPM currently is no match for PCGen for character creation or/and management. That may change in the future, when RPM has as much of the options (items/feats/classes/etc.) integrated as PCGen. But for now when i play a character, it's PCGen all the way.
4.) Laptop overkill: Why use a laptop when a palmtop can suffice? PCGen has viewers for many platforms (my favorite is Ipaq), and i can tell you, using a palmtop at the table is a god sent. It's not really a distraction (that's after all the other players have drooled over it), it's small, and it's not overkill.
5.) Players like to roll dice and DMs like to see those dice rolls. That's one of the reasons why i didn't use the integrated dice roller on the I-Paq i borrowed (although it was fun playing wih it).

I think that RPM can be a good character manager/creator, but it's still a long way off. I cannot seriously consider letting my players use RPM in the gaming session, unless of course they can get a laptop that's no bigger then a palmtop. If RPM wants to be a player tool, it needs a client for the palm/pocketpc, in conjunction with RPM it can be a very powerfull package!

 

[Luke]

Re: Re: RPM ease of use

Ack! There's a DM that let's you have a Laptop at the table. We need to have a little chit-chat with that DM, he has to see the error of his ways ;-)

This is of course a personal preference, but i think that laptops don't have a place at the table for use by players.
1.) It's distracting enough when the DM uses one, i don't even want to think about how distractinf it's gonna be when a player uses one.
2.) A player doesn't need THAT much info at his disposal ...

Well...as a player
- I constantly beat those looking up books to get the info required. I'd say that the computer is less of a distraction than the books. If you have to look up, then you have to look up... By the way, the lists (for skills, spells, feats etc) now have instant key search.
- I definitely get my skills and attacks processed much faster. A couple of clicks for the points behind feats such as power attack, or finesse, and it's all recalculated for me. Turning on my barbarian rage has comprehensive effects on attacks, damage, certain saves and skill checks.With RPM it's already all there, and it doesn't forget little details that easily slip through.
- Skills are a classic. RPM knows the different options (for DCs) and the different modifiers. It's just all already instantly there. So's the full text description if I need it.

The overall effect is that:
- The laptop is less of a distraction, since you get your answer and relevant info quicker than with books.
- My play is more accurate.

If anything, players in my group seem keen to get their own laptops, rather than see mine as a distraction.

Since you mention that a palm would be fantastic, you must be acknowledging that an electronic device, in general, is a good idea. So what's so good about a palm, compared to a laptop? Let's look at the key differences:
- Palm is a lot smaller, but also has a much reduced screen size and user interface. If you want speed, the laptop can show you a *lot* more at once, and get you where you need to be a *lot* faster. The down-side is it's *relative* bulkiness - but I don't need character sheets and books!
- A laptop has a *far* greater memory and storage capacity. If you want to look at PCgen characters in your palm, then you're using it as a character sheet. Trying to provide decent in-game mechanics (provide all the dynamic rules etc) is just too difficult within the space constraints.
- Sure RPM has far more in it than a player needs, but that doesn't mean a player should deprive themselves of what they can get out of it. I also use it to keep my personal journal. The DM trusts me to *not* look up race descriptions of creatures and give my character unfair knowlegde. Unfair character knowledge is a personal roleplaying discipline regardless .

Of course, if the DM managed players and his own creatures within a laptop RPM, and players could view and select options through palms effectively running as dumb terminals, that would be excellent.
Personally I don't know how feasible multiple-palm networking is for this.

Regards,

 

[Luke]

RPM for players

Here's an example of how RPM can help players:

Note that a handy options list pops up. You can fiddle with your rage, power attack points, finesse points etc, and RPM instantly does all the math for you. There can be all sorts of weapon enchantment or other feats affecting the final outcome.

A barbarian/monk is a good example (if admittedly contrived) since a barbarian's rage can temporarily change many stats, which affects other things, and a monk may be better off not using his Monk BAB (especially when multiclassed with low monk levels).

Similarly, you can quickly add conditions such as "stunned" or "entangled", and have all stats instantly recalculated for you.
As well, you have full and instant lookup of the text for these conditions...

 

[Gizzard]

> I'm just wondering about the way some users of PCGen are saying
> that the programm is too difficult or not-user-friendly or whatever...

After a while, you get used to PCGen. But if you want to see how non-intuitive it is, set a new user down in the chair and watch the frustration. Its really hard to do a good UI, especially one that covers as much data as PCGen can; so I cut it a lot of slack. Still, it has a lot of rough edges. Here are two things that two seperate new users asked me: "I entered my Psychic Warriors Psi-Abilities wrong. How do I change them?" (my answer: It doesnt look like you can. Start your character over maybe?) and "I cant get it to do multiclass right. Does that part work yet?" (my answer: I think mostly so. But let me give you a hand.) And, of course, the infamous: "Is it still thinking about printing or did it hang?" (my answer: Either is possible. Has it been more than 5 minutes yet?)

 

[DMFTodd]

I found the early PCGen much too confusing and put it straight in the recycle bin. This week though, I gave it a second chance due to the 2.6 version supposedly having a better user interface.

Verdict: The new interface is much improved and the program is actually usable now. There's still a lot of work to do on the interface (I'm a developer though so I'm probably picky) but the program is understandable now and useable.

So if you couldn't decipher PCGen before, it's time to give it another try.