PCs lack of respect for the 'caste' system of your typical fantasy society

[Voneth]

For me, the behavior is also based off the fact that one is playing an escapist hobby. And some see part of that escapism as getting the chance to thumb their nose at authority.

Another thought is that the fuedal system was based on oaths of protection AFTER someone else kicked their butt. So there is part of a "might makes right." mentality that came with the early days. Of course this plays right into habit of some DND games where the King is a 20th level fighter as well as the bartender at the local pub.

Even if the DM doesn't see it that way.

 

[S'mon]

Re killing 300 men in a career

True.
But all at once?

Although I said 'over a career', Actually, yes. I remember reading a newspaper report about a US Marines(?) Corporal in WW2, who held a position after his companions ran away, and killed around 600 Japanese soldiers in one battle (it was a full Battalion), armed with a light machine gun, and a bayonet after the LMG ran out of bullets. The Japanese Battalion commander killed himself after losing his entire battalion to one man. The article was about how the Corporal hadn't been awarded the Medal of Honor because he was Jewish. Truth is often stranger than fiction.
There are certainly pre-modern cases of men killing dozens in one battle, a lone viking at Stamford Bridge in 1066 AD killed dozens of English, holding the bridge, before being backstabbed by a lone Englishman (rogue?) who'd floated down the river in a cooking pot to get behind him.


A fight between A local Champion (8th level fighter) and a 15th levl PC means certain death for the champion.
IRL the power disparity is much less, even a lowly peasant can get a lucky crippling shot.

I agree. If my best knight was only 8th level, obviously I as baron wouldn't send him alone against the 15th level PCs.

 

[S'mon]

Characters above about tenth level or so are mostly only vulnerable to equivilant monsters, increbible odds, really bad luck and similar things

I've only played 3e at lower levels so far, so can't say for sure, but in 1e-2e I had no trouble terrifying 20th-level PCs with mundane opposition. A horde of 1st level Mongol horse archers with a few blessed/enchanted arrows each can easily take down most high-level foes, bar a few long-range fireballs that will kill a tiny number of them.

 

[hong]

I've only played 3e at lower levels so far, so can't say for sure, but in 1e-2e I had no trouble terrifying 20th-level PCs with mundane opposition. A horde of 1st level Mongol horse archers with a few blessed/enchanted arrows each can easily take down most high-level foes, bar a few long-range fireballs that will kill a tiny number of them.

Assuming you use the DMG wealth tables, any 20th level character worth her salt will be able to fly, have an AC of 30+, and have ranged attacks dealing more than 50 points of damage per round. She could fly right over the horde, find the commander's tent, and slaughter him. Then wipe up the horde as they flee in panic (historically speaking, most of the casualties in pre-industrial battles occurred after one side had broken and was running).

Even if you don't use the DMG wealth tables, any 20th level wizard/sorc worth her salt could do the same thing.

Now if the enemy commander himself was also 20th level, that gets interesting....

 

[hong]

I agree. If my best knight was only 8th level, obviously I as baron wouldn't send him alone against the 15th level PCs.

In my last RttToEE session, a 14th level cleric and his summoned dire bear came --> this <-- close to slaughtering an entire party of eight 8th-10th level PCs. You say yourself that you don't have much experience with high-level 3E. Believe it, the power curve shoots up dramatically.

 

[Black Omega]

I deal with this with a simple rule about respect: You don't get it unless you give it. If my PCs want to give sass to worthy rulers, or start ordering around high priests, they've earned a few more enemies and they will meet them soon enough. And I'm not concerned about the details of how they show respect, just as long as they make an effort. In other words, they don't necessarily have to bow unless I've specified otherwise, but basic "Yes sir, no ma'am" is good enough.

This is fairly close to what I was thinking reading this thread. At times it feels like there is some confusion over terms. Respect doesn't mean servile fawning. And you don't need to go into any detail on it. I like the 'give respect to get respect' line. i'll have to remember that.

 

[S'mon]

Assuming you use the DMG wealth tables, any 20th level character worth her salt will be able to fly, have an AC of 30+, and have ranged attacks dealing more than 50 points of damage per round. She could fly right over the horde, find the commander's tent, and slaughter him. Then wipe up the horde as they flee in panic (historically speaking, most of the casualties in pre-industrial battles occurred after one side had broken and was running).

Even if you don't use the DMG wealth tables, any 20th level wizard/sorc worth her salt could do the same thing.

Now if the enemy commander himself was also 20th level, that gets interesting....

Bloody board monster ate my reply!
Basically: mongol commanders don't sit in clearly demarcated command tents waiting to be fireballed. They're indistinguishable, to an outsider, from the rest of the army. And yes the PCs were flying, fireballing etc. But whenever they tried to get close to the archers, whose horses were faster than their fly spells, they took massive missile damage and had to withdraw. This was vs maybe 100 horse archers, not the main army of 200,000.

 

[S'mon]

In my last RttToEE session, a 14th level cleric and his summoned dire bear came --> this <-- close to slaughtering an entire party of eight 8th-10th level PCs. You say yourself that you don't have much experience with high-level 3E. Believe it, the power curve shoots up dramatically.

I've noticed that: eg in the old 'Cult of the Reptile God' scenario for 1st level PCs, they're expected to fight & defeat a 7th level cleric with his spells prepped. Not likely to happen in 3e.

Still, your example implies that 4-6 8th-10th level characters can beat a 14th. If the 8th-10th are NPCs and well equipped, like the sample ones in the DMG, they ought to be able to beat the 14th-level PC, likewise.

 

[S'mon]

Assuming you use the DMG wealth tables, any 20th level character worth her salt will be able to fly, have an AC of 30+, and have ranged attacks dealing more than 50 points of damage per round. She could fly right over the horde, find the commander's tent, and slaughter him. Then wipe up the horde as they flee in panic (historically speaking, most of the casualties in pre-industrial battles occurred after one side had broken and was running).

Even if you don't use the DMG wealth tables, any 20th level wizard/sorc worth her salt could do the same thing.

Now if the enemy commander himself was also 20th level, that gets interesting....

I think basically the PCs expected the above to happen. It didn't work out like that, and all I did was use historical Mongol tactics translated to a fantasy world where flying fireballing mages are not unexpected. Horse Archers in skirmish formation are not a juicy fireballing target, you won't get more than 3-5 with 1 fireball. Mind you it didn't help that the PC Archmage was a Conjurer with I think both Abjuration and Evocation as barred schools!
The idea of heroically exposing yourself to harm by making your command tent visible as such is wholly alien to the historical Mongol way of warfare, BTW, it's a very European idea.

 

[hong]

Bloody board monster ate my reply!
Basically: mongol commanders don't sit in clearly demarcated command tents waiting to be fireballed. They're indistinguishable, to an outsider, from the rest of the army.

A commander still needs a means of communicating his existence and his orders to his army. This means banners, guards, heralds, and all the other accoutrements of command; if the soldiers can figure out who he is, so can anyone else. At the very least, a commander can be expected to have better armour and weapons than everyone else -- a medieval commander exerts control over his troops by personal charisma as much as rank, and physical displays of class and rank are a part of that. Even if he doesn't, the PCs can just go invisible and wait for him to show himself.

And yes the PCs were flying, fireballing etc. But whenever they tried to get close to the archers, whose horses were faster than their fly spells, they took massive missile damage and had to withdraw. This was vs maybe 100 horse archers, not the main army of 200,000.

That sounds like DM fiat more than anything. And it won't work in 3E; fly has a 90' speed, and horses move at 50'-60'.