PDFS--Of the WotC Court Case

[N0Man]

Look, it's at the very least not polite to declare on a message board frequented by some of a game's creators that you're looting their stuff for free. If you think the creator deserves contempt - and I freely give it to anyone who tries to remove previously available content from all circulation permanently - then go ahead, I guess, but realize it for what it is.

(Like ff6shadow and his deciding to delete all his 4e stuff forever. I kept putting off spitefully reposting all of it in his thread and then WotC's forums exploded, but again, it's not something you say in public about someone you approve of.)

That's a blatant mischaracterization of what I said. I did not declare that I'm looting all their stuff for free. I declared that I've bought all their books and am a DCI subscriber, and that I fully support and encourage the purchases of the books. What I stated was that my behavior caused them no loss, because I have purchased everything.

In the *one* example that I gave where there was a product that I did not buy, it is a product that I've practically begged to buy! I've contacted CSR twice asking them if the product will ever be re-released, posted on official forums about 3 times when the subject came up to add my support for re-release. I want to give them my money but they aren't selling the product. Again, there is no loss.

I was not encouraging depriving WotC of sales, but merely that not all acts of piracy's actually do this.

 

[N0Man]

Hence the "if" at the start of the post. Whatever. You're clearly happy being a thief, so you're a lost cause. A shame you weren't raised to be a person of honour instead. Your family must be so very proud.

I stated clearly that I purchased the products (that were for sale), supported purchasing the products, am a DDI subscriber, and that people who pirated and used these items when they could have purchased them are shmucks...

Insult and slander is not called for.

 

[jgerman]

No. They had documentation from one of the torrent sites as to the number of downloads of the PHB 2. It was over twice the number of reported sales of the book. There are many torrent sites.

That's 100% indicative of lost sales from pirating. And by no small amount, either. How much has been lost is certainly debatable.

Nope. It's 100% indicative of file sharing taking place, that is all.

Whether that file sharing resulted in more, less, or the same amount of sales for WotC. There are studies that indicate that file sharing has no impact on sales and some that indicate that it has a positive impact. The bottom line is you have no idea in this case, you're making assumptions with zero data.

What I said was correct. It is uncertain whether this file sharing had a positive or negative impact on WotCs sales. If you have evidence to the contrary feel free to present it. However the fact that file sharing was taking place is not that evidence. Nor is "because everyone says so".

 

[Mark Hope]

I stated clearly that I purchased the products (that were for sale), supported purchasing the products, am a DDI subscriber, and that people who pirated and used these items when they could have purchased them are shmucks...

Insult and slander is not called for.

It's not slander if it's true (and it would be libel anyway, not slander).

You gained added value from the material you pirated. You said as much yourself. You did not pay WotC for this added value. You stole it from them. You are a thief and without honour.

Piratecat here, with a cautionary note for everyone reading: it doesn't matter whether you approve or disapprove of other folks' actions. I think we'll all find it easier to communicate if we don't start preaching to one another. Call people whatever you like in the privacy of your own home, but insulting them here -- yes, even if you disapprove of something they've done -- should be avoided.

Thanks. PM me with any questions. ~ PCat

 

[Xyxox]

No. They had documentation from one of the torrent sites as to the number of downloads of the PHB 2. It was over twice the number of reported sales of the book. There are many torrent sites.

That's 100% indicative of lost sales from pirating. And by no small amount, either. How much has been lost is certainly debatable.

Actually, that is not indicative of a single lost sale. All it indicates is that people downloaded the product without paying for it. It does not indicate that even one of those people who downloaded would have paid a dime for the product had the avenue of downloading not been available.

Heck, it doesn't even indicate that even one of those who downloaded it even read more than a handful of words from the PDF, let alone used it for an actual game.

 

[Imban]

You gained added value from the material you pirated. You said as much yourself. You did not pay WotC for this added value, because they wouldn't take your money, so heck with them.

Seriously, as much as I don't think people should go around announcing that they are a pirate in public, I believe he actually did the right and proper thing here, despite it being illegal.

Ok lets take this step further, if guy A has draconomicon as pirated only, maybe he would or would not have bought it...but if you play the game for long there are vooks you NEED, and if you pirated them you are stealing...no ifs and or buts...

That doesn't mean they'd have bought it. I watch fansubs of anime and value essentially all anime that I actually watch at near $0, so if fansubs suddenly dried up, I'd basically stop watching anime entirely.

Likewise, I know quite a few pirate RPG players who, if not for piracy, would just be freeform roleplayers or MMORPG players, because "that thing my friends dragged me into" isn't something they're actually into at the level where they want to spend cash on it.

 

[kenmarable]

You are a thief and without honour.

Woah, I'm not an admin, but I'm sure one will be along momentarily to give a warning of even thread lock.

In the meanwhile, cut the personal crap. Let's ALL* stop talking about one person's behavior (right, wrong, honorable, whatever) and discuss preferably the court case (see thread title) or at least stick with the abstract discussion of piracy rather than insulting a fellow EN World member.

But that's just me who would like to see a thread about the court case continue but fears a threadlock is all of the sudden pretty imminent.


* And, N0Man, I say this to you as well. You made a point, but, personally, I think continuing discussion of your own behavior (which as you even state is only indicative of just your own behavior and may or may not reflect the larger reality) probably isn't going to get any further than generating more insults your way.

 

[Mark Hope]

Originally Posted by No one, but let's misquote Mark Hope
You gained added value from the material you pirated. You said as much yourself. You did not pay WotC for this added value, because they wouldn't take your money, so heck with them.

. I agree that WotC have only made things worse by pulling all their legal pdfs. But that doesn't suddenly turn stealing into not-stealing.

Seriously, as much as I don't think people should go around announcing that they are a pirate in public, I believe he actually did the right and proper thing here, despite it being illegal.

"Illegal" is not "right and proper".

Woah, I'm not an admin, but I'm sure one will be along momentarily to give a warning of even thread lock.

So be it. I think it's awful that Enworld should give airtime to self-confessed thieves.

 

[Imban]

"Illegal" is not "right and proper".

The law and morality are not always in perfect alignment. But we've probably gone a bit off-topic here.

 

[Nifft]

You are a thief and without honour.

So be it. I think it's awful that Enworld should give airtime to self-confessed thieves.

And here we see why it's so hard to get realistic data on what the effects of copyright violation actually are.

Oh well, -- N