PDFs: Why are people anti-watermark?

[Vigilance]

In the long run, that's the only way we'll still see PDFs being sold in five years (if not sooner).

That statement is patently false. PDF sales of watermarked PDFs are rising, not falling.

 

[SteveC]

Of course statements like these that can't be backed up are not helping this thread out at all.

That may be so, but there have been some real accusations thrown around here that are just as groundless. Let's leave it to the people who do this for a living:

As a PDF producer, does watermarking give you added security?

(Just as an aside, when I posted about this, I took a look at how difficult it would be to find info on how to remove watermarks. It was not hard).

Some of you reading this may say "hey, if it's not hard to remove them, why are you complaining?" Honestly, it's not about the fact that my name will print out on each page, it's about the fact that it shouldn't be there at all. Just like your name shouldn't appear on the bottom of each page of any book you buy.

--Steve

 

[Crothian]

Honestly, it's not about the fact that my name will print out on each page, it's about the fact that it shouldn't be there at all. Just like your name shouldn't appear on the bottom of each page of any book you buy.

PDFs though are not books though so what is good for one has nothing to do what is good for the other. The change in the medium (electronic file verse bound collection of pages) makes a big difference. And it isn't that it should or should not be there. THat makes it sound like there is a right way and a wrong way which there is not. It is an opinion.

 

[SteveC]

That statement is patently false. PDF sales of watermarked PDFs are rising, not falling.

Well, that's because there are many more companies that are using them, that were not before. Largely, I suppose, this is because everything is going through Drivethrough now. My point about "the only way PDFs will be sold in five years," was not based on watermarking. I believe that with P2P networks continuing to thrive, the only way a small industry like gaming will be able to keep selling them is to give gamers a real reason to buy them rather than just download everything.

Your company, by the way, is the example I use as to how to successfully sell PDFs. Service, updates and downloads after the sale are critical to me, and that's why I buy from RPGObjects. I think many of the smaller companies out there are going to have to adopt a similar strategy or be gone. I'm sure I can find RPGObjects PDFs online, but buying and downloading them from your site directly is much easier. Heck, when there's an update or new products announced, I get an e-mail about it. Yep, that makes me want to keep buying!

--Steve

 

[SteveC]

PDFs though are not books though so what is good for one has nothing to do what is good for the other. The change in the medium (electronic file verse bound collection of pages) makes a big difference. And it isn't that it should or should not be there. THat makes it sound like there is a right way and a wrong way which there is not. It is an opinion.

You're right here, and that's part of the problem. I treat my PDF purchases exactly like a book purchase, because that's what I believe it is: a purchase.

PDFs and physical books are obviously very different things. Highlighting the differences is what a lot of the people who are in support of piracy will do. I don't support pirating PDFs (obviously) and I'm not changing my opinion, but I think ultimately it's one of the things that the market is going to decide for us.

This makes me unhappy, as a lot of game companies that make interesting PDF products are going to go out of business in the next few years.

Just so it's perfectly clear, anything that I state should be considered as my opinion. Sometimes my particularly passionate opinion, but an opinion nonetheless.

--Steve

 

[Vigilance]

Well, that's because there are many more companies that are using them, that were not before.

Right, but the fact that people will buy those PDFs says something. It says if customers aren't given a choice, most will choose a watermarked PDF over nothing. Take that for what it's worth.

I believe that with P2P networks continuing to thrive, the only way a small industry like gaming will be able to keep selling them is to give gamers a real reason to buy them rather than just download everything.

This I totally agree with.

Your company, by the way, is the example I use as to how to successfully sell PDFs. Service, updates and downloads after the sale are critical to me, and that's why I buy from RPGObjects.

Thanks!

I think many of the smaller companies out there are going to have to adopt a similar strategy or be gone. I'm sure I can find RPGObjects PDFs online, but buying and downloading them from your site directly is much easier. Heck, when there's an update or new products announced, I get an e-mail about it. Yep, that makes me want to keep buying!

--Steve

And yeah, you can find RPGO PDFs, I know cause I've looked.

Mostly what I've been defending in this thread is the concept that defending copyrights (through reasonable DRM like watermarks and similar methods) is something that should not be used to portray e-book manufacturers as "bad people".

This notion that adding a watermark treats the customer like a criminal doesn't wash with me. Maybe people aren't aware of the fact that every purchase they make at a big box retailer is recorded and that the video of that purchase is stored digitally, forever, and a receipt number can be typed in bringing up that purchase at any time thereafter. If you paid with a credit card, then I also have your name, address and phone #.

Watermarking is FAR less invasive than that.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Right, but the fact that people will buy those PDFs says something. It says if customers aren't given a choice, most will choose a watermarked PDF over nothing. Take that for what it's worth.

And, in fact, when given a choice between DRM protection and watermarking most folks will choose watermarking. And DRM protection is what watermarks were replacing at DTRPG. That is what led me to make purchases at DTRPG, I purchased nothing from them when it was DRM protected. Given the choice between DRM and and nothing I picked nothing.

The Auld Grump

 

[SteveC]

Right, but the fact that people will buy those PDFs says something. It says if customers aren't given a choice, most will choose a watermarked PDF over nothing. Take that for what it's worth.

...that is for some definition of most. All I can tell you is that I won't buy them, and I'm not the only one. There's not a single PDF that I've ever purchased that I couldn't have lived without. I purchased them because I was interested in the material, they were reasonably priced, and because I wanted to support the company.

I hold my stand on not buying DRMed products, any DRMed products, very seriously. I don't buy them, and I also will speak out about it when asked. And I'm not the only one. The thing is, I believe that in the long term, any kind of DRM is bad business for the PDF gaming producers, because there are many people out there who will go and get the products illegally rather than use DRM. I am not one of those people, mind you, but they do exist.

Mostly what I've been defending in this thread is the concept that defending copyrights (through reasonable DRM like watermarks and similar methods) is something that should not be used to portray e-book manufacturers as "bad people".

I would never say that: I like the vast majority of the publishers who post to ENWorld, because they are giving me something quite valuable when they appear here to talk about their product and answer questions about it. I remember a recent thread about martial arts in D20 Modern where several publishers gave their writeups for martial arts styles right in the thread. How can you beat that?

For me, you can get rid of that good will by using DRM in your products. I don't know if this is going to come through in this e-mail, but I think that kind of service is simply amazing, so it should give some kind of indication of how seriously I take my stand on DRM if I won't buy a product from someone like that who uses it. You (and other publishers) might think that's nuts, but that's my opinion. And I'm not the only one.

This notion that adding a watermark treats the customer like a criminal doesn't wash with me. Maybe people aren't aware of the fact that every purchase they make at a big box retailer is recorded and that the video of that purchase is stored digitally, forever, and a receipt number can be typed in bringing up that purchase at any time thereafter. If you paid with a credit card, then I also have your name, address and phone #.

Watermarking is FAR less invasive than that.

I'm quite aware of that practice. I would love to get into what I think about the big box stores, but I think Eric's grandmother wouldn't like it very much.

I hope that everyone who reads my posts realizes that I'm not intending this to be personal. If you're posting your thoughts on this you're one of the good guys in this industry. Still, I hope you can also see that those of us who take this seriously enough to talk about it aren't your enemies either: the people who are hurting your business aren't posting in threads like these because they're just taking what they want and not caring about it.

--Steve

 

[Turjan]

So that publishers that worry the files will be shared across the web will have their hands held and be assured that everything will be okay.

Watermarking means nothing and does nothing. Stripping the watermark from a PDF is simple for just about anyone that investigates the entire process.

Heh, that's a good summary .

I don't like watermarks that show up on the printouts. I don't mind them if they vanish when I set the printer to 100% (i.e., not adjusting the page size to the physical printing range of my printer), like with the AE pdf.

 

[Treebore]

I hate DRM, and will never buy pdf's with anything like it put on it.

Watermarking is a non-issue for me. I am fine with it and hardly notice it when I read the pdf or print it out.

I am also the type who puts their name in every book they buy, in several places.

So who does it keep from stealing it? Other people. Either your fellow gamer, or the one who stole your laptop and the watermarked pdf's on the HD helped the police find you as the owner.

Other than that, why be upset with watermark's? The company you buy and download it from already knows who you are. They will record your purchase, watermark or not. So unless you lie about who you are to begin with, Watermark's clearly show who the rightful owner is. Period.

It isn't an embedded locator beacon or tracking signal, it doesn't allow your CC data to be stolen, it just puts who you are, the date you bought it, and who you bought it from on each page.

So to me I am baffled why anyone even has a problem with it. The reasons given here just smack of "I just want to have a problem with it".

I get having HUGE issues with DRM, but watermarking is just a mark on each page. No big deal.

If all it does is make pdf publishers feel like they are somehow being protected, even if it really doesn't, why should we the consumer care? Big Brother already knows who you are, where you live, and where you work, etc....

So what if a pdf vendor knows too?

We should be worrying about much more important things than watermarked pdf's.