Perception: We've all gone blind!

[Tervin]

What's the big deal about spending a feat on it? There are several threads going on about the lack of impressive feats, and you get a feat every other level in any case. So why not spend one on skill training?

Multiclassing into Ranger and picking Perception for skill training seems like a nice and powerful level 1 feat. After all, you can easily pick another class to dabble in if you retrain.

 

[Samurai]

Multiclassing into Ranger and picking Perception for skill training seems like a nice and powerful level 1 feat. After all, you can easily pick another class to dabble in if you retrain.

If you Retrain, you lose all the benefits of the previous feat, including the skill training in Perception, same as if you retrained the Skill Training feat...

 

[BarkingDeathSquirrel]

I'll checkup witht the wording, but passive perception should only be used when the players are not aware. so yes, when the players are not yet aware of the sharshooter its skill (which is 8 more than the best perception in the group) should make it easy to hide for him. but when the are activly looking for him, and not distracted by combat or so, let all players roll vs his roll. this would result is sometimes he rolling 12+ which makes it impossible to see him that round, but also rolling 1-5 which makes it possible for multple players to see him.

for other skills, aid another would help, but in this case i would let everyone roll seperatly.

Also, if you are wandering through a goblin cave, I'd think you would be actively looking for danger (and, therefore, using your active defense) rather than strolling on through like it was a walk through the park.

 

[nittanytbone]

So, spend a feat on it. A 4E heroic tier character gets 6 feats. They're a lot less valuable than in the past.

An Elf with Skill Training, Skill Focus, and a decent WIS score will be great at perception. Plus, you get feats and stat boosts often enough that, unlike in the past, you can be flexible with your build. If invisible ninjas keep owning your party, then respond accordingly and start investing resources in perception.

 

[silentounce]

If you Retrain, you lose all the benefits of the previous feat, including the skill training in Perception, same as if you retrained the Skill Training feat...

I think his point was that the +5 from training is a big bonus at 1st level. Later on, not so much because of getting 1/2 level bonuses and such. So, you drop it when it's no longer necessary. Heck, maybe the PCs can take turns being the Perception jockey. Start up a table with rotation based on level.

This does bring up a good idea which I missed, what a poor power gamer I am. The multiclass feat is much better than the skill training feat, so if you have the ability prereq, do that instead. D'oh, so obvious.

 

[Tervin]

I think his point was that the +5 from training is a big bonus at 1st level. Later on, not so much because of getting 1/2 level bonuses and such. So, you drop it when it's no longer necessary.

Thank you, that was what I more or less what I meant. Plus, that people should always pick the multiclass feat over skill training whenever possible, as you can always retrain if you want to multiclass into something else later.

That can be seen as powergaming, but I think it is more a case of trying to make your character as fun to play as possible - and then extra options are nice.

 

[Rinello]

Eladrins can be trained in ANY skill.
Humans, in page 46 PHB gain:

Bonus Skill: You gain training in one additional skill
from your class skill list.

-from your class skill list..

 

[IanArgent]

I think his point was that the +5 from training is a big bonus at 1st level. Later on, not so much because of getting 1/2 level bonuses and such. So, you drop it when it's no longer necessary. Heck, maybe the PCs can take turns being the Perception jockey. Start up a table with rotation based on level.

This does bring up a good idea which I missed, what a poor power gamer I am. The multiclass feat is much better than the skill training feat, so if you have the ability prereq, do that instead. D'oh, so obvious.

Te +5 is always relevant. It means that the skilled perosn has a roughly 25% better chance of doing their thing against a level-appropriate challenge. It overs both bases, the skilled guy is quite a bit better than the rest, but the rest can skill keep up with him.

 

[cdrcjsn]

Don't forget that creatures have to distract their enemies so they can hide; just like PCs. If the PCs watch a goblin turn a corner, they are going to expect him (or him and more goblins) to come out and attack. The exceptions of this are when the creature uses the bluff skill to create a distraction. (note that this is essentially an encounter power skill use)

I don't think this is correct.

The only requirement in being able to hide is either concealment or cover and awareness of probable location is not a factor.

However, one big mistake that I see the OP making though is that Stealth during combat is an Opposed Check. It says it specifically in the Stealth entry and Opposed Checks are described in the beginning of the skills section in the book.

Each opponent you're trying to hide from during combat gets an active perception check, not a passive one.

 

[Surgoshan]

If you hide during combat, you make an opposed stealth check. If the mobs fail, then they can take a minor action on their turns to make another check against your last stealth check.