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Permanant Character Death
- Thread starter Dire Wolf
- Start date
Gothmog
First Post
IMC, death is permanent for most characters, barring exceptional circumstances. I think that allowing Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection to be thrown around willy-nilly cheapens the game and the believability of the world. In fact, I won't play in a game that ALWAYS allows PCs to return from the dead- thats just plain silly. Death has to mean something for it to have any meaning, and the way core D&D is set up, its merely an inconvenience.
As a rule, the PCs in my game are pretty careful- PC death is a rare event. The PCs don't charge into a fight without doing recon first, and if they are ambushed, they take a defensive posture. They always fight using a buddy system, to insure they increase their survivability. In 13 years of running my world, there have been 4 PC deaths, and only one of them came back. It was a druid who was grappled by a demon and fell into a column of black flame that was a gate to another sub-dimension. His body was incinerated, and the other PCs couldn't recover him, but his death sealed the gate for various complicated reasons. About 15 adventures later, the PCs found themselves trapped in the sub-dimension where that gate lead to (although they didn't know it at the time), and came across the PC, intact and healthy, but living a feral existance with only vague ideas of his former life. The party rescued him and brought him back to the real world, but the player who lost the character originally didn't want to play him again although he was tempted- he thought Menegar had recieved a second chance from his god, and took up guardianship of a sacred natural henge near a town where he ministers to the needs of the people (and is married to the best pie cook in town!). The player always has the option of bringing him back into play, but I doubt he will.
Every time a PC death has occurred in my game, its been a memorable and emotional experience. The death of the druid Menegar left everyone shocked, saddened, and looking at the game differently. The bard composed a ballad to his memory which became quite popular, and his druidic order made him the equivalent of a saint. The player didn't feel cheated or upset about the death, in fact he was rather proud of it, and still talks about it to this day.
As a rule, the PCs in my game are pretty careful- PC death is a rare event. The PCs don't charge into a fight without doing recon first, and if they are ambushed, they take a defensive posture. They always fight using a buddy system, to insure they increase their survivability. In 13 years of running my world, there have been 4 PC deaths, and only one of them came back. It was a druid who was grappled by a demon and fell into a column of black flame that was a gate to another sub-dimension. His body was incinerated, and the other PCs couldn't recover him, but his death sealed the gate for various complicated reasons. About 15 adventures later, the PCs found themselves trapped in the sub-dimension where that gate lead to (although they didn't know it at the time), and came across the PC, intact and healthy, but living a feral existance with only vague ideas of his former life. The party rescued him and brought him back to the real world, but the player who lost the character originally didn't want to play him again although he was tempted- he thought Menegar had recieved a second chance from his god, and took up guardianship of a sacred natural henge near a town where he ministers to the needs of the people (and is married to the best pie cook in town!). The player always has the option of bringing him back into play, but I doubt he will.
Every time a PC death has occurred in my game, its been a memorable and emotional experience. The death of the druid Menegar left everyone shocked, saddened, and looking at the game differently. The bard composed a ballad to his memory which became quite popular, and his druidic order made him the equivalent of a saint. The player didn't feel cheated or upset about the death, in fact he was rather proud of it, and still talks about it to this day.
Dire Wolf
First Post
Gothmog....
I agree with your feelings about death being treated like that. And that is a great story about how that PC happened to die. I think one of the reasons my players have a problem with their character's death in this case is because it was not a heroic action. About 1/2 of the party died fighting a powerful lich, but the bodies were being brought back to be raised when they ran into a Gelatinous cube. A failed spot check and 2 consecutive 1's rolled on saving throws ended a mid-level party's fun.
I agree with your feelings about death being treated like that. And that is a great story about how that PC happened to die. I think one of the reasons my players have a problem with their character's death in this case is because it was not a heroic action. About 1/2 of the party died fighting a powerful lich, but the bodies were being brought back to be raised when they ran into a Gelatinous cube. A failed spot check and 2 consecutive 1's rolled on saving throws ended a mid-level party's fun.
Dying in the game should have consquences. And there are things that kill making it almost impossiable to be brought back without high level magic. I also think playing stupidly just becasue you can be brought back is bad. We have had raise dead in our game and we still play carefully and try not to do stupid things. In the last game we leveled very slowly and I died twice and had my familiar get killed thre times the XP loss hurt.
I also think it is how you die if it is an heroic death throwing yourself into a volcano to stop it that is one thing. But dying becasue you are rolling badly is another.
I also think it depends on how attached you are to the character if you are not ready to play something else and again if you didn't die because of stupidly why penalize the player.
Also permanet death can effect the campaign in a bad way we had two deaths in one session and at first the DM was like role up new characters so we did and all week the other player and I talked a lot about it both of us slapped something together and neither one of us were very happy. Also since ths characters were the last of the original group everything that we had been doing for close to two years all the mysteries we were working on all the contacts died with us, it would have taken major metagaming on the other's part to continue. The DM being a wise kind of DM realized what was going on and allowed the two of us to be raised.
Later the other player's character died a permanet death trying to stop a magical device that messed with time he failed and was aged to dust. We also had characters die who choose to play new PCs.
As I have said before this is a game and it is supposed to be fun. If your group does not mind playing without raise dead spells then that is fine.
As for it ruins the feel of the game to have raise dead I don't understand that. Divine magic does so much along those lines anyway like heal you from death's door to perfect health.
For me some of the magic items and other spels take some of the beliveabilty out of the game for me.
I also think it is how you die if it is an heroic death throwing yourself into a volcano to stop it that is one thing. But dying becasue you are rolling badly is another.
I also think it depends on how attached you are to the character if you are not ready to play something else and again if you didn't die because of stupidly why penalize the player.
Also permanet death can effect the campaign in a bad way we had two deaths in one session and at first the DM was like role up new characters so we did and all week the other player and I talked a lot about it both of us slapped something together and neither one of us were very happy. Also since ths characters were the last of the original group everything that we had been doing for close to two years all the mysteries we were working on all the contacts died with us, it would have taken major metagaming on the other's part to continue. The DM being a wise kind of DM realized what was going on and allowed the two of us to be raised.
Later the other player's character died a permanet death trying to stop a magical device that messed with time he failed and was aged to dust. We also had characters die who choose to play new PCs.
As I have said before this is a game and it is supposed to be fun. If your group does not mind playing without raise dead spells then that is fine.
As for it ruins the feel of the game to have raise dead I don't understand that. Divine magic does so much along those lines anyway like heal you from death's door to perfect health.
For me some of the magic items and other spels take some of the beliveabilty out of the game for me.
Dire Wolf
First Post
Brekke...
I am not referring to prohibiting raise dead or ressurection, etc. In my original post I say that I do allow all of those things. In this case however it was at total party kill. The entire party was killed over a series of two encounters. And the bodies should have been dissolved by a gelatinous cube. This is really the only time I considered having PC death permanent.
I would have considered having another party go in after the bodies but there shouldn't even be bodies to go after... that is basically why I decided to call it the end of the road for these PCs.
Understand my dilema?
I am not referring to prohibiting raise dead or ressurection, etc. In my original post I say that I do allow all of those things. In this case however it was at total party kill. The entire party was killed over a series of two encounters. And the bodies should have been dissolved by a gelatinous cube. This is really the only time I considered having PC death permanent.
I would have considered having another party go in after the bodies but there shouldn't even be bodies to go after... that is basically why I decided to call it the end of the road for these PCs.
Understand my dilema?
Mythtify
First Post
Personaly, I would leave them dead. I find that character death l lends a sense of reality to the game. I hate when players get am immortality complex. They start to do stupid things, because they believe that the DM would never kill them. Character death makes character success that much sweeter.
If you realy want to let the characters come back, but don't want to feel cheesy about it, look into Ghostwalk. I believe that it was made for someting just like this.
If you realy want to let the characters come back, but don't want to feel cheesy about it, look into Ghostwalk. I believe that it was made for someting just like this.
Tessarael
Explorer
Speaking at a player level, as someone who likes to play immersively, I hate it when my character dies. Random death pisses me off most. Total party kills (TPKs) irritate me even more.
Let me put it this way ... if there is going to be a highly dangerous encounter, as a player/character I like to be forewarned. In some cases, it will just be that you're in an uberdangerous area. In other cases, it will be that you know there's a big dragon there.
---
Example: the high-level party is traveling with a group of low-level grunts, and an Avoral Guardinal detects that one of the low-level grunts has an unpleasant (evil) aura. [We were being real paranoid at this stage due to other things.] The grunt with the unpleasant aura turned out to be carrying some magical equipment with moderate aura. My character casts Color Spray on the grunt.
The grunt, realises we're onto him, and smacks my character with Quivering Palm. Boom, 1 round until death. Grunt threatens to kill me, unless the rest of the party backs off which they do. Grunt then exits stage left.
Party continues on and goes back to fighting bad guys in the dungeon. Evil monk grunt shows up, we see him, then my character dies. I'm like, "Woah, DM dude, I see the Monk and teleport out, where was my chance to act after that guy appeared?" DM realised he hadn't given us a chance to respond, my character teleported out, and the fight ensued. My character didn't die - Monk was too busy fighting the rest of the characters.
Long story short, soon thereafter we plane shift, and get a Limited Wish scroll to remove the Quivering Palm on my character. Next encounter we wipe the floor with the monk fortunately.
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In general, I like the opportunity to be able to escape. In particular, high-level characters will have escapes like Teleport, Gaseous Form, etc, and should have opportunity to use these given that they go wimpy early enough (i.e. before they get thwacked and killed).
If your characters are plain stupid and continue to fight a losing battle, then sure TPK them, but otherwise give them a chance to escape.
Let me put it this way ... if there is going to be a highly dangerous encounter, as a player/character I like to be forewarned. In some cases, it will just be that you're in an uberdangerous area. In other cases, it will be that you know there's a big dragon there.
---
Example: the high-level party is traveling with a group of low-level grunts, and an Avoral Guardinal detects that one of the low-level grunts has an unpleasant (evil) aura. [We were being real paranoid at this stage due to other things.] The grunt with the unpleasant aura turned out to be carrying some magical equipment with moderate aura. My character casts Color Spray on the grunt.
The grunt, realises we're onto him, and smacks my character with Quivering Palm. Boom, 1 round until death. Grunt threatens to kill me, unless the rest of the party backs off which they do. Grunt then exits stage left.
Party continues on and goes back to fighting bad guys in the dungeon. Evil monk grunt shows up, we see him, then my character dies. I'm like, "Woah, DM dude, I see the Monk and teleport out, where was my chance to act after that guy appeared?" DM realised he hadn't given us a chance to respond, my character teleported out, and the fight ensued. My character didn't die - Monk was too busy fighting the rest of the characters.
Long story short, soon thereafter we plane shift, and get a Limited Wish scroll to remove the Quivering Palm on my character. Next encounter we wipe the floor with the monk fortunately.
---
In general, I like the opportunity to be able to escape. In particular, high-level characters will have escapes like Teleport, Gaseous Form, etc, and should have opportunity to use these given that they go wimpy early enough (i.e. before they get thwacked and killed).
If your characters are plain stupid and continue to fight a losing battle, then sure TPK them, but otherwise give them a chance to escape.
Queenie
Queen of Everything
It's me...
I am the player (one of them anyway) in question.
I had worked on this character forever, developing a great background story and personality, and looking forward to becoming an Archmage (She was 10th level). We have never played anything higher than 10th level and I was really looking forward to it.
My character was kidnapped by this lich and the rest of the group had to come to my rescue. They had to get through 3 levels of Undermountain, fighting all kinds of new stuff from the Fiend Folio. At the end they fought a stone golem and the lich, until it took off. As rjmc64 said it was a big climatic battle and three of us didn't make it. So the other three of us were badly hurt and bringing the rest of the party out to be resurrected.
Around the corner is a gelatinous cube. One of us walks into it accidentally, me and the other gal roll ones before we have a chance to do anything, are paralyzed and that's it. The whole party is now dead.
It was anticlimactic to say the least. For some of us, it was our favorite characters. It was cheesy and yes, I was bothered. It wasn't fun and I was under the impression that was what this game is about. I have enough drama in my real life.
So there is something "wrong" with me because I'm upset my character died and I should grow up or I shouldn't play anymore or whatever. But everyone wants me to keep playing and accept this is what happens and just deal with it. Why should I continue to do something that isn't fun?
~Queenie
I am the player (one of them anyway) in question.
I had worked on this character forever, developing a great background story and personality, and looking forward to becoming an Archmage (She was 10th level). We have never played anything higher than 10th level and I was really looking forward to it.
My character was kidnapped by this lich and the rest of the group had to come to my rescue. They had to get through 3 levels of Undermountain, fighting all kinds of new stuff from the Fiend Folio. At the end they fought a stone golem and the lich, until it took off. As rjmc64 said it was a big climatic battle and three of us didn't make it. So the other three of us were badly hurt and bringing the rest of the party out to be resurrected.
Around the corner is a gelatinous cube. One of us walks into it accidentally, me and the other gal roll ones before we have a chance to do anything, are paralyzed and that's it. The whole party is now dead.
It was anticlimactic to say the least. For some of us, it was our favorite characters. It was cheesy and yes, I was bothered. It wasn't fun and I was under the impression that was what this game is about. I have enough drama in my real life.
So there is something "wrong" with me because I'm upset my character died and I should grow up or I shouldn't play anymore or whatever. But everyone wants me to keep playing and accept this is what happens and just deal with it. Why should I continue to do something that isn't fun?
~Queenie
I don't see any problem with just leaving them dead. Especially if you are switching to another campaign (unless it's similar enough/ in the same world), it may actually be best to make new characters.
As the entire party died, unless you have allies and people looking out for/ waiting for you, it is unlikely that anyone would be sent to ressurect these characters. Adventurers have an unfortunate habit of dying, and unless you've distinguished yourselves somehow, nobody is likely to be concerned about the loss of a few more.
You could, as I think was suggested, roleplay the fact that these characters are dead. Have them journey through the planes/afterlife, seeking answers or a way to return to a living state. This option, however, could be a campaign in and of itself, and if you wish to switch over to your other game, it might be a poor option.
Having an 'enemy' faction raise them is also an option, but you would need to create a reason for this to have occurred; evil priests generally don't do such things without a greater purpose, and this too could be a campaign in and of itself.
Overall, though, if I was running this game, it would probably mean the end of the line for those characters, especially if the new campaign was very different from the original. It sucks when a lot of work is lost over a misstep, but sometimes that's just the way it goes.
As the entire party died, unless you have allies and people looking out for/ waiting for you, it is unlikely that anyone would be sent to ressurect these characters. Adventurers have an unfortunate habit of dying, and unless you've distinguished yourselves somehow, nobody is likely to be concerned about the loss of a few more.
You could, as I think was suggested, roleplay the fact that these characters are dead. Have them journey through the planes/afterlife, seeking answers or a way to return to a living state. This option, however, could be a campaign in and of itself, and if you wish to switch over to your other game, it might be a poor option.
Having an 'enemy' faction raise them is also an option, but you would need to create a reason for this to have occurred; evil priests generally don't do such things without a greater purpose, and this too could be a campaign in and of itself.
Overall, though, if I was running this game, it would probably mean the end of the line for those characters, especially if the new campaign was very different from the original. It sucks when a lot of work is lost over a misstep, but sometimes that's just the way it goes.
Queenie - You really gotta do what ya gotta do. There's no right or wrong answer.
I think it's great you were so invested in your character that you were upset by her death. And I can tell you that the circumstances leading up to the TPK (as you present them anyway, I do believe there are 2 sides to every coin) do sound a bit, well, overbearing to say the least.
But DnD is meant to be played in such a way that adventurers *could* die....and even in rare circumstances, ALL of them at once. It's up to you to decide if rjmc64 is too much of a "killer DM" for you. Perhaps just talking to him about this (as well as with the rest of the group) will help iron everything out for the future. Maybe he will not present such an impossible scenario again. But I should also note that if things don't get sorted out to your liking and/or you are going to forever hold a grudge about this incident, then perhaps you should find a group of people that believe adventurers can never permanently die.
Either way you are going to have to accept that your PC is dead and move on - it's hard to say right now what's best for you. Obviously you should always avoid ANYTHING that isn't consistently fun for you - but perhaps this incident is just a small blip in an otherwise fun game?!
I think it's great you were so invested in your character that you were upset by her death. And I can tell you that the circumstances leading up to the TPK (as you present them anyway, I do believe there are 2 sides to every coin) do sound a bit, well, overbearing to say the least.
But DnD is meant to be played in such a way that adventurers *could* die....and even in rare circumstances, ALL of them at once. It's up to you to decide if rjmc64 is too much of a "killer DM" for you. Perhaps just talking to him about this (as well as with the rest of the group) will help iron everything out for the future. Maybe he will not present such an impossible scenario again. But I should also note that if things don't get sorted out to your liking and/or you are going to forever hold a grudge about this incident, then perhaps you should find a group of people that believe adventurers can never permanently die.
Either way you are going to have to accept that your PC is dead and move on - it's hard to say right now what's best for you. Obviously you should always avoid ANYTHING that isn't consistently fun for you - but perhaps this incident is just a small blip in an otherwise fun game?!
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