D&D General PETITION: Acknowledge Hasbro's hurtful content (Black orcs, Asian yellow orcs, Native American red orcs)—through an Amendatory Bundle [+ thread]

[DarkCrisis]

Take the time and effort to Change a 30 year document that no one cares about except Mystara fans?

Don’t read Hollow World, my dude.

 

[Mistwell]

Will you sign the petition?

Just a note: I don't think we have "A-Game threads" at ENWorld. That's an RPG.net thing, not an ENWorld thing.

 

[MGibster]

If you wish to delve into the nitty-gritty details, please see the complete PDF research document, here:

You're opening a thread about a contentious issue and expect people to read a 48 page PDF to get up-to-speed? That's ridiculous. How about you give us a brief synopsis of what the problem is (I see you did that in another post) and what steps you want WotC to take?

Please note: I myself have never called for censorship. I have only ever called for a "teaching moment." I have never called for this game book to be removed from libraries, or from the DTRPG storefront. I do call for Hasbro to cease profiting from this hurtful content.

Practically speaking, that's what you're asking for. And, no, I don't want to get into a semantic discussion abotu how this isn't really censorship because you're not the government. WotC is not going to spend a lot of time or money adding addendums to legacy products produced by TSR. So I ask, what is the purpose of this petition? Is it about teaching people? No, I don't think it is.

Request for an A-game thread. I'm not a moderator, yet I'm requesting that we refrain from posts like: "petitions never work." So, I am calling for a +(positive) thread.

We can still dissent, right?

 

[Hussar]

Mein Kampf is for sale and publishers are certainly profiting from it. And rightfully so. It is an important historical document.

Orcs of Thar is an important historical document for the hobby. When people claim that racism has never existed in the hobby, that things like orcs have never been problematic because they are fictional (a word for word quote of an oft made argument) having something like Orcs of Thar right there to point to, complete with the disclaimer, allows the conversation to point to concrete examples of the inherent bigotry in the genre and the game.

Rewriting it for modern sensibilities is entirely missing the point of having works like this available.

So no. I will not sign this petition because I believe that the OP, while commendable inintent, has completely missed the point.

 

[Zardnaar]

Mein Kampf is for sale and publishers are certainly profiting from it. And rightfully so. It is an important historical document.

Orcs of Thar is an important historical document for the hobby. When people claim that racism has never existed in the hobby, that things like orcs have never been problematic because they are fictional (a word for word quote of an oft made argument) having something like Orcs of Thar right there to point to, complete with the disclaimer, allows the conversation to point to concrete examples of the inherent bigotry in the genre and the game.

Rewriting it for modern sensibilities is entirely missing the point of having works like this available.

So no. I will not sign this petition because I believe that the OP, while commendable inintent, has completely missed the point.

My university had mein kampf on the reserve stack. I did reference it in some essay buy I kinda cheated and Google the reference.

Orcs of Thar us crap but I mY want to buy a copy one day eg if I ever want the gazette as a complete set.

 

[AnotherGuy]

That is child's view. Just because there is something else worse going on, doesn't mean YOU should shut down discussion of anything else.
I thought Orcs of Thar was deleted and not for sale, and I find it quite disgusting that it is.

What doesn't surprise me, is a bought of good old mid western boys laughing and joking that racism is fine, "just ignore it bro".
Well no, I choose not to "just ignore it bro".

And shame on you boys that are happy with such a racist property up for sale.
View attachment 276229

I feel this isn't fair criticism and playing the shame game is really not on. Lots of problematically influenced material is up for sale. The answer IMO is not to censor such material and collectors wouldn't want it censored. A foreward or disclaimer is a perfectly fine method for dealing with this.

I wouldn't want to see this pulled. There are ideas within this book that are worth mining for great stories and hooks. At least, from what I can recall, 2 Princes of Glantri are directly affected by material from this Gaz. There is more to use from it than just the problematic elements. Surely as a fellow gamer one can see that?

 

[Immeril]

On a side note: bad timing to start your petition. The recent news concerning Roald Dahl's work has been rather poorly received.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

By protesting against something, you raise it's profile, and sell more copies. This petition has probably already done more harm than good.

If you want something that is already almost forgotten to go away, the best thing to do is ignore it.

 

[AnotherGuy]

@Dungeonosophy I feel if you really cared about what you're proclaiming you'd produce a document with helpful suggestions and freely place it on every D&D forum. I'm sure the Piazza and Pandius would welcome such a document.
Given all the work you've already done I don't think it's too much of an ask.

And if that really is too much for you to take on (life happens) outsource the project to the Enworld community with a +thread on proposed changes. Everyone could pitch in with their ideas.
There are many fantastically generous Enworlders who take on amazing projects here - for instance @Voadam with his thread on Undead or @Cleon with his monster conversions or even posters like @FitzTheRuke with his Story Hour threads inspiring the community or @pukunui with threads on enhancing APs.
What I'm saying is there is a better way to address it.

 

[Lanefan]

This thread is tagged [+positive]. If this thread annoys you, please move along to other ENWorld discussions. Thank you!

The existence of the thread doesn't annoy me. Quite the contrary; it's a worthwhile topic, and I'm glad to see it raised.

The attempt to use the [+positive] tag to suppress dissent and make the thread an echo chamber, however, doesn't sit so well.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The attempt to use the [+positive] tag to suppress dissent and make the thread an echo chamber, however, doesn't sit so well.

This. If you are not prepared to listen to dissenting opinions, expressed reasonably and politely, you are part of the problem, not part of the solution. People who disagree with you do not do so because it says "always evil" on their character sheet.

 

[Enrahim2]

Only action point 2 sound reasonable to me. The rest seem strongly counterproductive. Reducing the paywall for the original as suggested in 3 will make more people likely to get curious and get it. Making revisions, public apologies, educational material and other such actions as suggested in the other points will likely make the work a lot more well known.

The actions described might be reasonable for a highly known and widespread work. However we are not talking about the Bible here, we are talking about a work that if never mentioned again will be for all practical purposes forgotten by any but a very narrow group of specially historically interested people. And that is at least what I want to happen.

 

[The Sigil]

I'm probably going to regret stepping into this thread, but you are raising an issue that is clearly important to you, racism in general is an issue that needs to be discussed, and you deserve to have it met with thoughtful feedback. This is intended as constructive criticism (about tone and reasonableness of your ask) and as good-faith discussion (on the rest of your points) and I hope it is received that way.

A. Concerns About Tone

The responses in this thread in favor of the petition have largely identified the problems with tone in some of the responses you received; however, please allow me to point out that your tone has not been impeccable either.

Hi, I labeled this a [+positive] thread. Please enjoy other threads at ENWorld. Thank you!

You may feel that the FAQ your wrote adequately addressed these concerns, but clearly MonsterEnvy did not (yes, his post was dismissive of your FAQ, and should have given more details), but the readiness to immediately dismiss towards those who don't agree with you does not really help your case, and calling for a "+ positive thread" does not mean you should expect that your stance on the topic of racism (a topic of discussion which is likely to be fraught with disagreement as it is a hot-button issue for many people), no matter how "right" you feel you are, should make criticism of your ideas off-limits. A better response might have been to point out that you have already explained why you feel the current disclaimer is inadequate and ask MonsterEnvy for a more detailed rebuttal of your FAQ to explain why they feel the disclaimer is enough. Posts like this make a reader who is sensitive about racism, and might be receptive to your views (like me) feel that you are relinquishing the moral high ground here.

And shame on you boys that are happy with such a racist property up for sale.

I am no moderator either, but SirLancelot, this post is quite literally an attempt to shame those with whom you don't agree - hardly putting our best foot forward as a community. Rather than assuming your view is right and leveling ad hominem attacks, I think explaining why you disagree with them would be better.

B. Unreasonable Ask of the Thread Audience
As MGibster mentions upthread, you are asking people to have a comprehensive familiarity with your positions on this issue, either by being familiar with your previous posts on the issue or by reading a 48-page you linked to in the first post. Now, I happen to be someone who is both familiar with your previous posts and read the 48-page document, but he's right to call out that this is not a reasonable ask in a thread like this one. You ought to have put out a summary of your concerns and your proposed solutions. (MGibster note you did that later in the thread, but he's not quite correct, that was another poster who published the list of items you desire - those who agree with your position are likely to call them "appropriate solutions" and those who do not may refer to them as "demands" but in the interest of finding neutral language, I will refer to them as "proposed action items.")

1. Apologize for the hateful and hurtful depictions and racial slurs found in its GAZ10 PDF product.
2. Donate all of the past proceeds of this PDF—dating all the way back to July 29th, 2014, when the PDF was first offered for sale—to one or more appropriate cultural charities, such as the Lakota Waldorf School.
3. From henceforth, make the PDF "pay what you will," with all proceeds going to such charities, in perpetuity.
4. Note: let it be known to all that I have never called for 'censorship.' Rather than divide the community by yanking and hiding this title in a vault (in the manner of Disney's Song of the South), I call on Hasbro to humbly unite the community in this way:
5. Hire one or more external cultural consultants with real academic credentials, to comb through the book and make a report of the exact nature of its wrongs. Hasbro's own boilerplate disclaimer claims that Hasbro "teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible. This part of our work will never end." So, if Hasbro is here to "teach" us, then let's have the "teaching" done by real teachers with real credentials.
6. Henceforth, bundle this new scholarly report with the GAZ10 PDF, as an educational "teaching."
7. Also make amends from an "in-world" (fictional) perspective: by hiring one or more culturally informed designers (who are either themselves experts in the World of Mystara, or in collaboration with aficionados of that world) to write at least a short re-imagining of the Broken Lands of Thar, whereby the racist crudities found in GAZ10 are revealed to be totally false propaganda by enemies of the peoples of Thar. There are any number of ways in which all of the problematic facets can be completely amended, while creatively preserving and enhancing the existence of the peoples of Thar within the fictional Known World of Mystara.
8. Note: GAZ10 is also advertised as being compatible with the Forgotten Realms and the World of Greyhawk, with a suggested placement in Faerûn's "region of Thar," and/or a magical portal to there, and also to the "WORLD OF GREYHAWK Goblins of the Pomarj, or to Iuz." And so these amendatory actions apply not only to the World of Mystara, but also secondarily to those two worlds as well.
9. Henceforth bundle this amended re-envisioning of the Land of Thar with the GAZ10 PDF, along with the academic/educational report.

If I may, I will respond to these items one at a time. Some of your proposed action items I tend to agree with; others, I do not, and I will try to briefly explain why in both cases. Let's get started.

1. Apologize for the hateful and hurtful depictions and racial slurs found in its GAZ10 PDF product
I believe WotC has a responsibility to take special care to make specific apologies for incidents that occur under its watch - for example, the recent example of the Hazodee in the Spelljammer setting. However, I do not feel the same level of specificity in apology should be applied to GAZ 10; while I agree that there are racial slurs in this product, I do not believe anyone involved in its production is still employed at TSR/WotC today (35 years after the product was written). There are other problematic depictions throughout legacy material from the TSR era (Romani stand-ins in Ravenloft, for example); since there are many such issues, I find the "boilerplate disclaimer" that some legacy products may contain material that would not be appropriate today is sufficient - I do not think it is reasonable to expect that a bespoke disclaimer for each problematic product must be drafted. I hope we can agree that WotC has made steps to recognize and apologize for their error through the inclusion of the disclaimer language, though I think we can also agree that whether or not the language disclaimer is sufficient is a subjective call where there is no empirically correct answer.

I happen to disagree with you on this point, but acknowledge you feel more is needed and you are not wrong - we just have differing opinions.

2. Donate all past proceeds of this PDF... to ... appropriate local charities...

If WotC feels as strongly about ensuring D&D is an open and inclusive environment as they claimed to during, say, the discussion of the OGL last month, then I think this is an entirely appropriate request. I might also note that I have a minor nitpick on your facts, though...

This digital product was published in 2014.

While the title was added to DriveThruRPG in July 2014, the title was actually made available at least as early as October, 2003 through WotC's "ESD" scanning program with svgames.com and Bastion Press (see ESD scanning program). Their entire ESD catalog was taken offline in April 2009 (see No More D&D PDFs, Wizards of the Coast Sues 8 File Sharers - Slashdot ) and they started re-scanning and re-releasing them in 2013 (see WotC Releases Old Dungeons & Dragons Catalog As PDFs - Slashdot ). So while the particular scan on DriveThruRPG has been around since July 2014, WotC released the title in a lower-resolution scan at least a decade earlier.

All that said, it is not likely that WotC has easy access to sales figures of this PDF in particular between 2003 and 2009 and probably don't have easy access to print sales figures going back to 1988 (depending on their records retention policy, these records might have already been destroyed) so I think asking them to go back to the DriveThruRPG release in 2014 to track their profits is reasonable, so I agree with you on this time frame.

3. From henceforth, make the PDF "pay what you will," with all proceeds going to such charities, in perpetuity.

Actually, I'm going to push back on this one. Making this PDF into a "pay what you will" is most likely to result in "what you will" being $0 which means the depictions in the PDF will be widely distributed (the demand for "free" product is at least a couple of orders of magnitude higher than the demand for a product with even a nominal price such as $.01) but the charities are unlikely to see much revenue. I feel it is a much better idea to leave the price point where it is.

4. Note: let it be known to all that I have never called for 'censorship.' Rather than divide the community by yanking and hiding this title in a vault (in the manner of Disney's Song of the South), I call on Hasbro to humbly unite the community in this way:

There isn't a specific ask here (it comes in the next few points), though I will note that in general I agree with the idea that we should not call for censorship. While I may not agree with all of the sentiments expressed by LordEntrails and Hussar, I do agree with them on the specific points quoted below:

Personally I find attempts to revise and hide the past distasteful.

Orcs of Thar is an important historical document for the hobby. When people claim that racism has never existed in the hobby, that things like orcs have never been problematic because they are fictional (a word for word quote of an oft made argument) having something like Orcs of Thar right there to point to, complete with the disclaimer, allows the conversation to point to concrete examples of the inherent bigotry in the genre and the game.

Rewriting it for modern sensibilities is entirely missing the point of having works like this available.

5. Hire one or more external cultural consultants ... to comb through the book and make a report of the exact nature of its wrongs...

Hi, it may be noted that I (an unpaid independent researcher) have already done most of the "combing" work for them.

I hope you will not be too offended if I point out that these two statements, taken together, might well encourage an observer to conclude that an ulterior goal of these demands (perhaps an unconscious one, given your history of passionate advocacy regarding the issues in this product) is that WotC provide you specifically with validation that would come from them agreeing with your particular set of complaints about this product.

I guess I do have one question for you about this - would you be satisfied if a panel of expert cultural consultants was hired and then produced a report document that was much less comprehensive than your own, in which they did not find issues with some of the items you did take issue with? Or if the panel of consultants said, "the current boilerplate disclaimer is sufficient and a separate report is not needed?"

6. Henceforth, bundle this new scholarly report with the GAZ10 PDF, as an educational "teaching."

This is an interesting ask. Given the content of this book, I am not opposed to bundling it with something that provides commentary on some of the depictions in order to make sure they are not presented without context. Similar to whether the current disclaimer is "enough" being a subjective thing, I think whether or not some sort of counterbalancing document presenting context is necessary is subjective as well. Will it be read? I don't know, but again, I don't think the inclusion of such a thing would hurt.

7. Also make amends from an "in-world" (fictional) perspective ... write at least a short re-imagining of the Broken Lands ... while creatively preserving and enhancing the existence of the peoples of Thar within the fictional Known World of Mystara.

Unless my memory is tricking me, support for the Mystara setting in the way of new product ceased even before WotC purchased TSR, so the setting hasn't been supported for 20+ years. I don't think it's reasonable at this point to ask WotC to go back and support a product line they were never involved in and that hasn't had official support for over 20+ years, even in the form of a "short re-imagining."

There's also the concern, particularly with the Mystaran setting, of "scope creep" once this sort of rewriting starts - to fix the Red Orcs, you also have to fix the Atruaghin since it is their proximity to the "Red Orcs" that is said to give rise to the Red Orc tradition (some culture swapping between groups in close proximity to each other is realistic) and similarly you have to fix the Ethengari if you're going to fix the Yellow Orcs. Then there's the Shadow Elves, who leave radiation-deformed elf babies out for the humanoids of Thar to adopt...

No, that way lies madness. Let's instead point out the racist issues that plague it and spend the time and energy that would have been spent rewriting this long-obsolete product on writing new, relevant products that do not suffer from these issues.

8. GAZ10 is also advertised as being compatible with the Forgotten Realms and the World of Greyhawk ... so these amendatory actions apply not only to the World of Mystara, but also secondarily to those two worlds as well.

What you're asking for in this bullet point was already done (with 3e setting book releases) over 20 years ago. Based on the references portion of Thar and Pomarj - Greyhawk Wiki it seems like the Land of Thar in Faerun and Pomarj in Oerth were both somewhat re-imagined in terms of lore and setting with the release of 3rd edition, and have possibly been re-imagined multiple times, since this GAZ10 was published 35 years ago, meaning GAZ10 is not even applicable to these settings any more.

For all the effort you did on researching the origins of some of the racist entries in the book, it seems an odd oversight that you made a request for a rewrite on these settings without checking to see if it had already been done. Is it possible this reflects a degree of tunnel vision with regards to the offenses you see in this product (or did you check and just not happen to find the rewrites)?

9. Henceforth bundle this amended re-envisioning of the Land of Thar with the GAZ10 PDF, along with the academic/educational report.

I don't think this re-envisioning is necessary in Mystara due to the world not being supported for 20+ years, and the re-envisioning for the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk settings is not necessary considering it has already been done in sourcebooks published after GAZ10. So no, I don't find this necessary at all.

C. One Other Thought

Is there anything worth saving from GAZ10?

Yes. The idea of "you know, monsters might not just be hordes of things to kill, they might have the same complexity as any elf, dwarf, human, etc. so maybe we should consider how you could run them as player characters to see things from their point of view."

D. My Current Take on the Whole Topic

WotC has said they are dedicated to making gaming open and inclusive and welcoming. I agree that there are problematic racist presentations in the Orcs of Thar. If they're serious about their dedication, they probably should donate the proceeds of the sale of this work since 2014 to a worthy charity or charities as a show of good faith.

If they feel the need to do include some sort of supplemental document with the PDF bundles that explains some of the problems with racist content the document, I don't see any harm in that... but I have to stop short of saying it's something they should do.

I do not feel they need to add an additional disclaimer to this document beyond the boilerplate, nor do I think it is wise that they change it to a "pay what you want" model. I also don't think they need to come up with a "re-imagining" of a portion of a book for a campaign setting they haven't touched for over 20 years.

So, in the end, while I agree that you raise some good points, I also find many areas in which we do not agree (mostly subjective calls like, "is the boilerplate good enough" or "is it worth the effort to rewrite portions of an obsolete product") and hopefully I have articulated my reasoning as to why in a thoughtful and respectful manner. I am genuinely curious about your thoughts on the paragraph I highlighted in red text because I think it will help me better understand where your line for "enough that you are satisfied" sits and whether or not you have left any room to consider that others might in good faith not agree with all of your subjective judgements about this product.

 

[Hussar]

@The Sigil - you have displayed FAR more patience and understanding than I ever could. Well done you.

 

[Firwood]

Absolutely not.
This petition is a manifesto of the cancel culture and the prevailing hypocrisy that wants to 'revise' the works of the past by imposing the vision of some who believe they have a 'superior morality' as is happening with Dahl's works.
Instead of wanting to erase the past, let them publish notes highlighting why something acceptable thirty years ago is no longer acceptable now, and everyone draws their own conclusions.
Racism is an idiot's idea regardless, but it is not by deleting a work that you delete the problem, far from it, you sweep it under the carpet.
In other words, what is being proposed is called CENSURE, and is in no way acceptable.

Edit: a moderator told me that my words about racism maybe can be misunderstanding. I'm italian and i translate literally from my language to english. What I mean to say is that racism is one of the stupidest things one can practice.
To hate someone because they are of a different colour is an aberration. It is one of the worst attitudes of mankind.
This is what I mean when I say that racism is a stupid thing.
Just to clarify my postition.

 

[ruemere]

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
-- George Santayana

Book burning:

Book burning - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

These sum my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Shiroiken]

By protesting against something, you raise it's profile, and sell more copies. This petition has probably already done more harm than good.

If you want something that is already almost forgotten to go away, the best thing to do is ignore it.

Especially when dealing with a mediocre product most people have never even heard of.

 

[dave2008]

And shame on you boys that are happy with such a racist property up for sale.

You should be careful where you point fingers. FYI, this is the reason I "liked" post #8:

"Is it disgusting? Of course. Should it still be for sale? Obviously not."

Please don't make assumptions about me and/or disparage me on those faulty assumptions.

 

[delericho]

I'm afraid I'm going to join the majority voice here - I can't support the petition as it stands. If GAZ10 is so bad that it simply cannot be allowed to stand, it should be removed from sale.

 

[bostonmyk]

My approach is not to buy it. I definitely applaud the spirit behind the petition, but given recent events, I don't expect them to do the right thing without some $ power pushing it.

M