Pathfinder 2E PF2 house-rules / variant rules

MaskedGuy

Explorer
Yeah what you are describing is essentially making your own game hack or homebrew system rather than just house rules. Its valid route though, I know some people who run games in their own homebrew systems even if they never intend to publish them.

(but yeah, personally I really really dislike bounded accuracy, but I think you can sort of have similar effect in 2e just by using proficiency without level since AC range will be similar without level being applied to AC. Like archive of nethys has nice feature of altering monster stats to fit proficiency without level if you want to check how it would change bestiary monsters)
 

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dave2008

Legend
Absolutely true, but its always a good idea to be aware of the Law of Unintended Consequences, and with a game that is tightly designed that becomes more and more likely. So you need to look at every change you make, see what places it impacts the system, and what that will be. And that becomes even more true when you're going as far as to try to hybridize three different (albeit related) game systems together. Both 4e and PF2e were/are relatively tightly designed; changes are liable to have ripple effects and you have to watch for those.

Which doesn't mean not to do it, it just means you need to be aware what you're biting off.
I agree to an extent. But if you have a mature group of players (like I do) and you design the house-rules together (like we do) I find that it is quite acceptable to handle those ripple effects on the fly. Make the change, see how it plays, and modify if needed, or get rid of the rule if it doesn't work. It has worked well for us.

That being said, my currently plan for changes is probably to great for that philosophy.
 

dave2008

Legend
Yeah what you are describing is essentially making your own game hack or homebrew system rather than just house rules. Its valid route though, I know some people who run games in their own homebrew systems even if they never intend to publish them.
Yes, that is where this is head I think. But not in the immediate future. I just keep coming back to it.
(but yeah, personally I really really dislike bounded accuracy, but I think you can sort of have similar effect in 2e just by using proficiency without level since AC range will be similar without level being applied to AC.
When we transitioned from 4e to 5e, BA is one of the things we fell in love with and I don't think we can every go back. We started using armor with DR in 1e, bloodied hit points in 4e, and now BA in 5e. Those things will be a part of any game we play going forward.
Like archive of nethys has nice feature of altering monster stats to fit proficiency without level if you want to check how it would change bestiary monsters)
I use AoN quite a bit, but I have never tried that function. I will check it out.
 

Thomas Shey

Legend
I agree to an extent. But if you have a mature group of players (like I do) and you design the house-rules together (like we do) I find that it is quite acceptable to handle those ripple effects on the fly. Make the change, see how it plays, and modify if needed, or get rid of the rule if it doesn't work. It has worked well for us.

Sure. But people need to be aware they're part of, effectively, one massive alpha test.

That being said, my currently plan for changes is probably to great for that philosophy.

It seemed so to me, but other people have far more expansive attitudes toward that scale of work than I do--and I've been involved in the design of at least two superhero games from the ground up.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
For my Abomination Vaults campaign:

Potent Potions
Healing Consumables generally heal 10 hp per item level, unless they provide some kind of additional bonus or benefit, when they generally heal 6 hp per item level (often rounded up to a multiple of 10). Also, you can draw a consumable as part of the action that activates it. You still need a free hand.

Example: A Lesser Elixir of Life now heals 30 hp (since it is a level 5 consumable with additional effects) instead of 3d6+6 hp. The item goes from 0.55 hp per gold piece and more importantly 5.5 hp per action taken (assuming you need three actions to draw and drink the elixir and then re-wield your weapon) to 1 hp per gold piece and 15 hp per action taken (assuming two actions needed: draw and drink, then re-wield).

Rationale: nobody ever purchased RAW healing potions; they're just too expensive, heals too little (with too much variability) and takes too long to use. Also, makes having a healbot Cleric less mandatory and saves on useless dice rolling.

Special Note: The Abomination Vaults campaigns caps magic item purchases to level 5, but not for consumables.

Hero Points
I hand out four (4) hero points each time the party ventures forth. This replaces unused previous hero points.

Rationale: Not gonna interrupt the game every hour to hand out a reward akin to how all the kids get a gold star thus making the reward meaningless. This gives the players an incentive to return to civilization despite there really being zero risk in just camping out in a cleaned-out section of the dungeon. And returning to civilization is where you can role-play against NPCs.

New ways to spend hero points:
  • Spend 1 Hero Point to add +5 to any check, before you make that check. This is a fortune effect.
  • Spend 1 Hero Point at the start of your turn to gain an additional action. You can only do this once per turn.
  • Spend all your Hero Points (minimum 1) to convert instant death into a critical hit.
  • Spend all your Hero Points (minimum 1) to grant one Hero Point to a creature of your choice. If it isn't used when you gain new Hero Points, it is lost.

Recall Knowledge
Everybody gets a free monster knowledge check at the start of an encounter. (More recall knowledge checks can be taken by spending actions as normal.)

This greatly reduces the impact from the thoroughly broken (not as in overpowered but the complete opposite) Recall Knowledge rules. Wasting combat actions for a ~50% shot at learning something that might or might not be useful just isn't thought through by Paizo. I'm not gonna come up with three or five instant facts just because Paizo says I must in various stupid feats, or come up with instant false facts just because Paizo says I must on rolling a critical failure. The developer who came up with that needs to lose their job.

My players simply accepted that in the rare cases when everybody failed the free check, they did the fight "blind". And nothing of importance was lost.


No Runes!
Runes cannot be purchased, only found through adventure. (So it's not quite no runes, just few runes, but that wouldn't make for a catchy title)

Enchantments are (re)-introduced as non-transferable bonuses providing the necessary basics the game expects: the bonuses to attack, damage, AC and saves. You can purchase a +1 sword just fine, it just doesn't have a "+1" thingy you can transfer elsewhere. Enchantments work exactly as runes except they can't be moved.

Note: this stocks the magic shoppes with the basics: the bonuses to "the big four": attack, damage, AC and saves. You still won't find a +1 Flaming sword to purchase. Loot it or craft it.

Putting the magical back into magic items. Specific magic weapons go from vendor trash you first strip for runes to actual desirable items to use. Runes themselves go from ho-hum to highly-sought after.

By the way, I combine this with High-Quality Weapons and Armor as written, simply because I dislike a world where everything is magical. Other than possibly making it harder to use Detect Magic to find loot this has very little practical impact on your campaign.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
We started using armor with DR in 1e[] Those things will be a part of any game we play going forward.
I believe we have discussed this before but to any new listeners:

Changing armor from AC to DR is a massive massive change to the core fundamentals of the D&D game. I do not believe any balance can be retained.

What I mean by this is of course not "the game becomes unplayable". Just that whatever balance the designers (of AD&D or PF1 or 5e or whatever) strived for is irretrievably lost.

Of course if you have a decent DM like Dave you're gonna find a new equilibrium where some classes and monsters get stronger and others weaker but the game still goes on and much fun is had. So I'm not saying "don't do it", only "don't even pretend the game is the same".

Have a good one :cool:
 

CapnZapp

Legend
IMHO, PF2 doesn't really need any major house rules. The design team has been pretty thorough, and there aren't any glaring holes in the game, as far as I can see. Every time some PF2 detractor pops up and starts complaining about this or that part of the game, I just shake my head and gather the arguments to show how much they are wrong.
This is not the thread, but I have criticized the RAW PF2 rules a lot. I have put forward cogent rational arguments, and very rarely have people disagreed in other ways than just instinctive "don't touch my game" ways.

Of course, I can't remember if you and I have had any altercations so please do not take this comment personally directed at you and I do not intend any evaluation on whatever posts you have made.

I just want to dispel the notion you're conveying here, that all criticism against PF2 is unfounded.
 

I just started a Forbidden Lands game. It uses a die system to track water, food, torches, etc. Here is how it works. A plentiful supply gives you a D12. At the end of the day (or determined point you must make a check) you roll the dice. On a 1 or 2 you drop a die size in supply. So, next check you are at D10 (D8, D6). If you run out of die, then you start getting hungry, thirsty, etc condition. At this point you need to buy more supplies or forage for more. In the case of torches, you need to spend time and have the materials and tools to make them.

So far, I am finding it to be one of my favorite supply tracking systems. It's pretty intuitive and easy to use. It allows you to make long distance travel and environment conditions matter, without all the complex minutia of older systems.
Yeah usage dice have been around for a decade or so now. They are great for tracking all sorts things ( charges left in a wand, ammunition, fate and threat etc).
Big fan
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I want a more bounded game numerically.
Have you explained why suggesting "play with proficiency without level" isn't doing it for you, Dave?

(I mean, it is such an obviously good solution that somebody gotta have made it, and still here we are. So I hesitate suggesting it since you clearly have a reason to keep looking. Maybe you could link to where you explain why PWL doesn't cut it for you?)
 

CapnZapp

Legend
@dave2008 Unfortunately I think PF2 is a poor fit for severely houseruled campaigns.

No scratch that, that comes off as not nearly strongly enough. Lemme try again:

Dave, I am supremely convinced Pathfinder 2 is the worst possible choice of every iteration of D&D I have ever come across during forty years of play to base any game that is more than superficially houseruled.

Aaah... much better.

Put otherwise, its main selling point is the very finely calibrated balance. If that isn't the draw for you (and it clearly isn't, though I do feel compelled to point out you haven't really tried it RAW, have you?) then I strongly suggest you look elsewhere for your game.

Why? Because there are just so very many things about this game that only makes sense if the Sacred Paizo Balance is your end goal. There are literally hundreds of rule sentences and feats and whatnot that simply is useless clutter if it weren't for the fact they provide some miniscule tweak that supports this Sacred Paizo Balance.

I would never play a game this complex and cluttery if all this complexity and clutter didn't serve its purpose (however little it may be).
 

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