No. Because I can work them into the narrative and players don't feel compelled to use short rest powers or focus point powers every encounter. They save them for appropriately tough encounters and I as a DM can work into the narrative when a player can refocus or take a short rest if I want to make them feel harried. They can still use what I like to call a ramp up where they unload a bunch of power at once against a very tough big encounter limited only by focus points remaining and or short rest powers remaining which they can save for that big ramp up. The power ramp up is a very important element of story-telling in my opinion. Players have to have ways to take the fights from the standard fight that is generally easily defeated where they use very few resources to the I blew off absolutely everything I had to barely win.
Pathfinder 2E PF2E like D&D 4e?
No. Because I can work them into the narrative and players don't feel compelled to use short rest powers or focus point powers every encounter. They save them for appropriately tough encounters and I as a DM can work into the narrative when a player can refocus or take a short rest if I want to make them feel harried. They can still use what I like to call a ramp up where they unload a bunch of power at once against a very tough big encounter limited only by focus points remaining and or short rest powers remaining which they can save for that big ramp up. The power ramp up is a very important element of story-telling in my opinion. Players have to have ways to take the fights from the standard fight that is generally easily defeated where they use very few resources to the I blew off absolutely everything I had to barely win.
dave2008
Legend
Hmm. In this aspect I don't really see the difference in 5e Battlemaster "maneuvers" and the 4e Fighter "martial exploits." The can both be recharged on a short rest and used or saved for a climatic battle. Except for the time difference (5 min vs 1 hr) they are pretty much the same. Are you suggesting the time difference is what does or doesn't allow you to build a story? I mean 5e even has a variant rule for 5 min. short rests.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
It has been my experience that the pacing of rests has made a significant difference. Yes, you can dial the short rest down to 5 minutes, but it really does feel different when you’ve got to scrape together a solid hour.
I don't know anything about 5E battlemaster or 4E fighter martial exploits. I can't speak on those.
What I know of 4E is they had encounter powers that were used every discrete encounter whether it was a group of kobolds or a group of giants. I didn't matter. My players blew off their encounter powers against a group of kobolds or a group of giants not because it fit the narrative, but because they felt they were wasting their encounter power if they didn't use it for every discrete encounter. To me the type of power design where players are encouraged to use powers not because the story requires it, but because the rules state that the power should be used per encounter is not good for story-telling.
That is my specific experience with encounter powers in 4E and why I did not like them. It really did reach a point where my players literally used their encounter powers because they felt they wasted them not to use them even if they were fighting some completely easy, non-threatening encounter. They would start off using their at-will powers, the things they were fighting were almost dead, and then they would start blowing off their encounter powers. I straight up told them, "You don't really need to do this to win. You guys have this won." They looked back at me and said, "Might as well use them or they're wasted. I'll get them back next encounter any ways." After that happened three or four times, I was done with the game.
dave2008
Legend
Ok, I responded to your answer specially about another post about 5e battlemaster maneuvers so I assumed you knew what they were. Martial exploits was the name give to 4e fighter (and other martial characters) powers. I was specifically referencing 4e encounter martial exploits, such as:
OK I'll stop you there as the rest of your post is just backing up this experience. That was not my experience. At-will powers were used every encounter, but I never had encounter or daily powers that were used every encounter. They were most definitely situational. Heck, some where good for groups and others for single target. Some had control options and others just more damage. So I will just say your experience, while valid, was not universal.
That's good that other players didn't do that. I literally had players blowing off AoE encounter powers on single target monsters just to use them. It really killed my immersion as a DM.
Campbell
Relaxed Intensity
I know the distinction will not matter to some people, but Pathfinder Second Edition does not have Focus Powers. It has Focus Spells. Focus Spells are definitively magic spells that belong to one of the four traditions. Besides full casters the only classes that gain focus spells are Champions (being the divine instruments of their diety's will) and monks who explicitly opt into the supernatural stuff. Regaining them also requires explicit activity in the fiction.
With very few exceptions the only abilities with use limits are either spell cast from spell slots or focus spells cast from your focus pool. Most of the time if you can do a thing you can always do a thing. No Action Surge, Daily Rages, Bardic Inspiration Uses, Second Wind, Indomitable, Ki Points, or the like. Not having to worry about resource management while still having a bunch of cool options on martial characters is one of my favorite features of Second Edition. A lot of the kind of stuff that would be an encounter power in 4e is just a class feat you can pretty much always use.
With very few exceptions the only abilities with use limits are either spell cast from spell slots or focus spells cast from your focus pool. Most of the time if you can do a thing you can always do a thing. No Action Surge, Daily Rages, Bardic Inspiration Uses, Second Wind, Indomitable, Ki Points, or the like. Not having to worry about resource management while still having a bunch of cool options on martial characters is one of my favorite features of Second Edition. A lot of the kind of stuff that would be an encounter power in 4e is just a class feat you can pretty much always use.
Campbell
Relaxed Intensity
I will share my perspective as someone who was a pretty big fan of Fourth Edition (mostly up to Essentials) who grew disillusioned with it over time. I am probably somewhat unique in that what drew me to Fourth Edition initially was the lore and attitude of the game. While I was active on these boards and both played and run some Third Edition I was mostly into Vampire, Werewolf, and especially Exalted. Fourth Edition's depictions of ruined empires of Nerath, Bael Turoth, and Arkhosia really spoke to me. I fell in love with this broken place full of conflict and ancient secrets. That it was backed by a cosmology that was fundamentally sundered as well only drove me into it further.
Here's what I liked
When Essentials came out I pretty much started running and playing other games. Indie fare like Apocalypse World, Monsterhearts, Masks, and Blades in the Dark. Stuff that straddles the divide like Chronicles of Darkness, Marvel Heroic Roleplay, Tenra Bansho Zero, Exalted 3e, and Legend of the Five Rings 5e. OSR games like Stars Without Number, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Labyrinth Lord, and of course Moldvay B/X. This was my experimental phase. I am still largely here.
So far I am really digging my experiences with Pathfinder 2, That is largely based on a few short runs (2-4 sessions) and Pathfinder Society play. I want to get a home game off the ground, but that will wait until after all this calms down. I play and run a lot of different games so I just need to make the time to add it into the rotation on more permanent basis.
Here's what I like about it so far:
Here's what I liked
- It was refreshing to see game books that were fundamentally meant to be used. Lore was sharp and to the point. Setting material focused on its impact to the characters.
- I like to run and play games that are focused more on individual characters' lives. There is often a lot of talky bits and non-combat action scenes interspersed by random bouts of extreme violence. I have been conditioned by running a lot of Vampire and as of late Apocalypse World. I liked that it handled short adventure days much better than previous editions of D&D.
- At the time I was really into hard scene framing and closed scene resolution so the self contained nature of combat encounters and skill challenges were right up my alley.I liked how punchy and visceral the game felt in play.
- I liked how it was not afraid to get experimental and try new things. I loved the techniques introduced in DMG2. I loved how Neverwinter and Dark Sun both completely flipped the script on the game. There was such a sense of creative energy in this era that I find sorely missed in the age of Fifth Edition.
- Combat was too plugged into fighting as a party. Fights were one or two characters faced off against lesser opposition felt rather stale.
- Occasionally fights were over long before they were actually over. Generally we would treat this as an opportunity to surrender or move to a chase scene. Still it got old sometimes.
- Exposure to games like Sorcerer and Apocalypse World taught to appreciate the value of just letting things snowball and dealing with fallout from conflicts rather than just rushing to the next conflict. My experience with OSR games like Star Without Number, Labyrinth Lord, and DCC only heightened that.
- For awhile I thought I was a big fan of Daily and Encounter powers. Over time I realized that I am more a fan of Fighters
- Essentials came on the scene and pretty much ruined my love for the line.
When Essentials came out I pretty much started running and playing other games. Indie fare like Apocalypse World, Monsterhearts, Masks, and Blades in the Dark. Stuff that straddles the divide like Chronicles of Darkness, Marvel Heroic Roleplay, Tenra Bansho Zero, Exalted 3e, and Legend of the Five Rings 5e. OSR games like Stars Without Number, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Labyrinth Lord, and of course Moldvay B/X. This was my experimental phase. I am still largely here.
So far I am really digging my experiences with Pathfinder 2, That is largely based on a few short runs (2-4 sessions) and Pathfinder Society play. I want to get a home game off the ground, but that will wait until after all this calms down. I play and run a lot of different games so I just need to make the time to add it into the rotation on more permanent basis.
Here's what I like about it so far:
- Actual rules for stuff other than combat. Not generalized conflict rules either, but specifics.
- Challenges are mostly focused on dealing with the current situation and resource management is secondary. Timing and coordination are important. It's not just about using spells and other abilities, but how you use them.
- The game seems to have more awareness (when compared to Fifth Edition) of old school play. There are strong dungeon exploration rules. Learning how to fight each individual monster really gives you an edge. There are lasting consequences besides hit point damage. There is a strong focus on skilled play.
- I love how integrated the lore is into the game and how accessible the Lost Omens line is to people just getting into it. I also love how it makes a real difference in play. Small stuff like edicts and anathema for each deity, banes and blessings from the gods, how there are archetypes and feats you need to accomplish something in the story to access.
- The Rarity System.
- I love how each class can be good at any skill and what that means for being able to deliver on character concepts.
- A willingness to publish niche content.
- Paizo seems like they are much more willing to experiment with the game this time around. The dev stuff also seems to have an awareness of the full breadth of RPG design. They seem very plugged into the indie and OSR communities.
dave2008
Legend
I prefer the option we came up with in 4e & 5e to use HS / HD to extend the uses of limited resources abilities (you can spend a HS/HD if you want use a limited resources ability past your "free" ones) as it ties things into endurance and exhaustion. Is there a way to do that in PF2e? Could we tie the use of feats into a limited resource like HD or perhaps apply a condition?
dave2008
Legend
This worries me. I haven't played a PC in 25+ years and I am not a skilled player, nor do I have a desire at this time to be one. Is it your opinion the PF2e is not a casual game? If a jumped into Society play would it frustrate the group if I wasn't a skilled player?
