D&D (2024) DMG and Pf2e GM Core... Same design philosophy?

[Staffan]

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needz moar red arrow.

And black shield.

 

[DEFCON 1]

So a book can't teach improv, but can it teach basic leadership skills?

Well, I would disagree that a Dungeon Master's Guide would have the space to do that. Another book just about teaching leadership skills? Sure, maybe. But a part of a chapter in the DMG trying to instruct DMs on how to navigate social interactions of the sorts you were talking about? Like how to navigate the relationships with problem players and how to let them go from your table? I'd say that's highly unlikely to be done well in a DMG.

But whereas the thing about pushing people towards improv (outside and away from the table) is that those classes actually help all people learn about social interactions and navigating and negotiating personal communication. One learns pretty quickly how to let go of pre-conceived ideas, how to relate to your fellow players, and become more amenable to dealing with unexpected changes. Which makes a person more able to get along with everyone else when at the table.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm pretty critical of WotC, but if I'm being honest, I think a lot of the time the random tables hold almost no use for me compared to what can be found on websites like Donjon and such. I don't think this is a move against homebrewing a setting as much as offering an alternative (and one long-demanded) to the Forgotten Realms.

I've always appreciated and used good tables. It's sad for me to see them go.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Warning this is kind of a rant on the DMG xD

I think the dungeon masters guide needs an entire chapter on social and leadership skills. The current offering of short paragraphs limited to session 0 and safety tools is woefully inadequate, especially when even enfranchised and veteran DMs, on these very forums, struggle with basics in these areas.

It is strange that a role comprised almost exclusively of social interations and group management is given no direction on the basic skills required to succeed in those areas. Instead we see these unprepared DMs flood social media with "horror stories" that are all too indicitive of this inadequacy. Where most of these issues would be prevented with basic social and leadership skills, but instead they are allowed to plague the community and ruin countless games.

We spend hundreds of pages on commonly available mechanical drudgery, only to seldomly touch the underlying skills required to be an effective DM. Learning to inspire and build trust are far more useful to your average DM than random table #637.

Its fine that we have mechanics in the DMG, but it's almost criminal that we simply ignore the fundemental skills required to succeed at this role.

How many people are going to be interested in a gamebook that teaches basic social skills? There are better sources for that. Rules and game material are more valuable in a book I'm expected to buy to play a game.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I do not believe it is truly effective to try and teach someone how to be social by having them read a book. That is beyond what a DMG would be capable of doing

This.

I read a shedload of books on similar topics when training to teach, and it was of limited help in an actual classroom.

 

[DinoInDisguise]

How many people are going to be interested in a gamebook that teaches basic social skills? There are better sources for that. Rules and game material are more valuable in a book I'm expected to buy to play a game.

I don't disagree. No one would celebrate their inclusion. And it's far from clear that the section would even be effective.

But I think the lack of these skills is a far larger problem in the community than many of the issues people rave about putting in the DMG. And at the moment, we have a guide for dungeon masters that doesn't even try to address the largest issue facing those very dungeon masters.

I agree with almost everything said by others on this topic. But we have multiple subreddits, numerous threads on these forums, and countless other accounts of issues caused by the lack of these skills. And not only are we not addressing the issues, the community doesn't even talk about them.

So I am happy if my comment just inspires people to think about the topic. Because this is likely the biggest issue facing the new DMs. As they will try DMing and, almost immediately, run into uncomfortable situations and problems because they lack the skills necessary to deal with the social dynamics of a group. And than we will all hear about it in a rant on social media about player toxicity and it will be a coin flip whether that person ever DMs again. We've seen this thousands of times.

Hopefully some way is figured out to address these issues.

 

[SteveC]

Dealing with intrapersonal issues is one of the most important issues that a DM has to learn. Unfortunately I don't know that a book is the best way to handle teaching that skill. I think a video format is much better for that. I think some very general principles can be discussed, but that's going to be a tough section to write. I think that the best idea would be to have some great DMs write a short essay on how they handle different issues like this.