Phantom Gaius Baltar

[Banshee16]

So, I finally got caught up with the entire series to date, and I've got some questions......




Spoilers....





















We originally thought that the Number 6 Gaius Baltar was seeing might be some form of mind control device or chip that had been planted in his head generating hallucinations.

But how does this relate to the fact that the Number Six reincarnated on Caprica was seeing a copy of Gaius Baltar? This almost sounds like something else is going on.

Also, the Baltar that Number Six is seeing.....his behaviour is very different from the "real" Baltar. Any theories?

Banshee

 

[Truth Seeker]

One, this is a mindtrip. A mindtrip that would not possible give you the answer you seek. It is hope, that part will explained in the series, one day. Therefore, like me, who is awaiting the time of the answer...has to wait.

Second, congratulations on finishing watching, the last two seasons.

Now, steel yourself for Season 3.0, next month.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

So, I finally got caught up with the entire series to date, and I've got some questions......




Spoilers....





















We originally thought that the Number 6 Gaius Baltar was seeing might be some form of mind control device or chip that had been planted in his head generating hallucinations.

But how does this relate to the fact that the Number Six reincarnated on Caprica was seeing a copy of Gaius Baltar? This almost sounds like something else is going on.

Also, the Baltar that Number Six is seeing.....his behaviour is very different from the "real" Baltar. Any theories?

Banshee

I think anyone reasonably interested in reading a thread about "Phantom Gaius Baltar" should not feel spoiled by this. (For Spoiler Tags, you can use (spoiler) enter spoiler here (/spoiler), except use square instead of round brackets)

But to the actual topic:

Nobody really knows what the Phantom Baltar in Six' head means. (And at least at the time of the creation, not even the authors have made up their mind). It was definitely something that was supposed to let us all reevaluate our theories on Baltars Phantom Six. They did that before, when Baltar got tested by Doc Cottle and there was no sign of a chip or unusual organic structure. Not proof for die-hard believers in the chip-theory, but still something to think about.

From the behaviour of both Phantoms they each seem to be a somewhat idealized version of the respective character - Phantom Six behaves like Baltar believes she would behave, and Phantom Baltar behaves as Six believes she would. The Phantoms and the "original" ones definitely differ in their behaviours.

For theories:
Maybe Phantom Six and Phantom Baltar are angles send by god. Maybe the "real god(s)" (?) send them to the both to eventually find a solution for the human-cylon conflict. But that requires us to assume that at least one god actually exists, and personally, I doubt that BSG TNS will ever make such a clear statement.

Maybe Baltar is also a Cylon, and Six and Baltar both died in the nuclear blast. The resourrection went somewhat wrong, and now a splinter of each others personality is embedded in each other. This doesn't explain the differences between Phantom and Original character. It is also doubtful that Baltar will turn out to be a Cylon, since it seems important for the character concept that he is a human traitor.
The theory could be slightly changed and just assume that Six died, Baltar (human, not cylon) survived, and the a side effect of the Ressourection process combined with the nuke lead to the Phantoms. (Which seems a very strange coincidence...)

Maybe both just have gone mad through the experiences, and now see each other, trying to find reasons for their behaviour (Baltar and his "messias"-complex) or punish themself (Six, maybe). It could just be a coincidence that both characters suffer from the same symptoms.

I wouldn't expect an answer soon. Maybe this will be a mistery never solved in the series, and fans can continue to speculate about it for decades after the show ended.

 

[delericho]

I'm inclined to think they are different things, with different causes.

Phantom Six has shown too much insight of the precise details of Cylon activities and plans to be simply a delusion (see the precisely-timed warning to Baltar to leave Galactica at the end of Season One, the prediction of the hybrid child, and so forth). I'm inclined to think that something has been done to Baltar, although quite what I'm not sure.

Phantom Baltar, however, I think is a delusion. My suspicion is that the Cylon's have become more human than they think. I think they consider the 'human' models to be nothing more than machines, when in fact they are almost as fragile (especially psychologically) as we are. Consequently, they thought nothing of sending Six (and Boomer) on long-term infiltration roles, not realising that she would form close emotional bonds with humans (esp Baltar), and would in fact fall in love with him. When the time came to fulfil her programming and betray Baltar, she did so, at great strain. Couple this with the stress of dying, and something snapped.

As for the precise symptoms... whatever was done to Baltar to cause 'Phantom Six' was probably done by Six herself. Therefore, knowing what was done to him, and given that he was the human with whom she associated most closely, she generated her own Phantom, specifically of Gaius Baltar.

At least, that's my current theory.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I'm inclined to think they are different things, with different causes.

That's certainly a possibility. (Though still a big coincidence, but each theory had its weaknesses )

Phantom Six has shown too much insight of the precise details of Cylon activities and plans to be simply a delusion (see the precisely-timed warning to Baltar to leave Galactica at the end of Season One, the prediction of the hybrid child, and so forth).

I think these "insights" aren't as precise as one might think.
What was the warning to leave Galactica good for? Baltar was in no real danger on Galactica (he was not Boomers target. The worst case would have been being arrested together with the President, and that is certainly not as dangerous as being shot down over Kobol!)

The theory on him being mad and having purely delusions about Phantom Six could explain it this way:
Baltar didn't want to cope with the responsiblities of the Vice President. He wasn't really politically interested. He just had a unpleasant experience with Starbuck (I'd assume such a thing has never happend to Baltar the Womanizer). He might even have feared that somehow Roslin would find about his treachery when he would work so close with her. So, he wanted out. Kobol was the right place. It seemed like a nice, beatiful planet. He could do some research there (also something different than analysing thousands of blood samples). So he let his Phantom-Six force him to leave the Galactica...

The hybrid child didn't work out as Phantom-Six seemed to indicate - it isn't really their child in the biological sense, though some (not unreasonable) handwaving can be used to show how it is, on a more conceptual level, their child. (Helo gave his seat to Baltar, who was only alive thanks to Six)


On other occasions, she showed no indication of knowing anything more than Baltar could know - she didn't point out the vital spot on the Asteroid Mining Facility, she wasn't able to identify Doral as a Cylon (and with only 12 models, I bet they know each other!). (This can still be explained as her being unwilling to help, but why? Or maybe Phantom Six helped him - since both guesses were correct, and she might have manipulated him subconciously)

All in all, so far no theory can really be invalidated, but each has its weaknesses...

 

[sckeener]

For theories:
Maybe Baltar is also a Cylon, and Six and Baltar both died in the nuclear blast. The resurrection went somewhat wrong, and now a splinter of each others personality is embedded in each other. This doesn't explain the differences between Phantom and Original character. It is also doubtful that Baltar will turn out to be a Cylon, since it seems important for the character concept that he is a human traitor.

I always wondered if Baltar was a prototype Cylon. However, I agree that the concept of him being totally human is an important concept for his story.

Maybe both just have gone mad through the experiences, and now see each other, trying to find reasons for their behavior (Baltar and his "messiahs"-complex) or punish themselves (Six, maybe). It could just be a coincidence that both characters suffer from the same symptoms.

Maybe Caprica Six got too close to Gauis. She had to get to know Gauis very well to pull off her mission. They touched a lot to say the least and current studies talk about using Oxytocin to create trust. I just like the idea of Oxytocin being used because for me it conjures up the image that they both got under each other’s skin so to speak.

Then there is the theory that Gauis might be the genetic father for some of the Cylons. Maybe Caprica Six is really Gauis’ daughter and they suffer the same mental affliction.

Then there is the concept of Ghosts such as Ghost in a Shell. Maybe Six imprinted herself on Gauis or She mingled their minds...thus the phantoms.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

They touched a lot to say the least and current studies talk about using Oxytocin to create trust.

Fascinating article - thanks for the link.

 

[Banshee16]

That's certainly a possibility. (Though still a big coincidence, but each theory had its weaknesses )



I think these "insights" aren't as precise as one might think.
What was the warning to leave Galactica good for? Baltar was in no real danger on Galactica (he was not Boomers target. The worst case would have been being arrested together with the President, and that is certainly not as dangerous as being shot down over Kobol!)

The theory on him being mad and having purely delusions about Phantom Six could explain it this way:
Baltar didn't want to cope with the responsiblities of the Vice President. He wasn't really politically interested. He just had a unpleasant experience with Starbuck (I'd assume such a thing has never happend to Baltar the Womanizer). He might even have feared that somehow Roslin would find about his treachery when he would work so close with her. So, he wanted out. Kobol was the right place. It seemed like a nice, beatiful planet. He could do some research there (also something different than analysing thousands of blood samples). So he let his Phantom-Six force him to leave the Galactica...

The hybrid child didn't work out as Phantom-Six seemed to indicate - it isn't really their child in the biological sense, though some (not unreasonable) handwaving can be used to show how it is, on a more conceptual level, their child. (Helo gave his seat to Baltar, who was only alive thanks to Six)


On other occasions, she showed no indication of knowing anything more than Baltar could know - she didn't point out the vital spot on the Asteroid Mining Facility, she wasn't able to identify Doral as a Cylon (and with only 12 models, I bet they know each other!). (This can still be explained as her being unwilling to help, but why? Or maybe Phantom Six helped him - since both guesses were correct, and she might have manipulated him subconciously)

All in all, so far no theory can really be invalidated, but each has its weaknesses...

Those are some valid points...I've kind of been wondering about this. Maybe Six really is a Phantom, and is a hallucination. Maybe Baltar "snapped" after the bomb, and Phantom Six is a manifestation of his sickness. Sure, she's made predictions, but they haven't all been right, and some of them, such as their parenthood of Sharon's baby, seems more like the delusion of a sick mind, rather than an accurate statement. Maybe she's a manifestation of parts of his consciousness,...so she'd be limited by his senses. He's a very, very smart man, and I'm sure he could probably be calculating all kinds of things in the background, and then Phantom Six is the outlet by which he reveals to himself something that he's just figured out.

My *only* reservation is when she showed up on the bridge in Season One, so that everyone could see her. It's the only part that doesn't make any sense to me if she's a hallucination.

The inconsistency that I don't understand is the number of people who have seen him talking to himself, behaving oddly etc. who don't seem to relay that information on. You'd think the reputation of "brilliant scientist" in the eyes of the public would be offset by rumours about him grabbing himself by the lapels, and throwing himself against a wall, or arguing with thin air. I mean, we're talking about a major public figure......people love to gossip, and politicians have been brought down for far less.

I don't think he's a cylon. I don't think they use cylons for high-profile roles....too much chance of someone noticing hey, John the librarian is the spitting image of the Vice President of 12 planets. Obviously, nobody would have known in the beginning that he'd become VP, so it's not like they'd only plant one, knowing he'd be high profile. The rest of the cylons apparently had no clue he even survived the blast.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

On other occasions, she showed no indication of knowing anything more than Baltar could know - she didn't point out the vital spot on the Asteroid Mining Facility, she wasn't able to identify Doral as a Cylon (and with only 12 models, I bet they know each other!). (This can still be explained as her being unwilling to help, but why? Or maybe Phantom Six helped him - since both guesses were correct, and she might have manipulated him subconciously)

All in all, so far no theory can really be invalidated, but each has its weaknesses...

She didn't identify Doral as a Cylon....that doesn't mean she didn't know he was. She could have been acting....just as the second Sharon didn't mention anything about the priest cylon in the 2nd or 3rd last episode.

Alternatively, maybe the cylon infiltrators are organized into cells....maybe there are groups of "types" that know each other, and other types are unknown...to reduce the chance of a captured cylon being able to give up all the rest of the spies under interrogation. They'd know that there are 12 models, but maybe Type 3 (Lucy Lawless)'s, 6 (Number Six)'s, and 8 (Sharons)'s don't know what 11 and 12's look like...

Banshee

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Those are some valid points...I've kind of been wondering about this. Maybe Six really is a Phantom, and is a hallucination. Maybe Baltar "snapped" after the bomb, and Phantom Six is a manifestation of his sickness. Sure, she's made predictions, but they haven't all been right, and some of them, such as their parenthood of Sharon's baby, seems more like the delusion of a sick mind, rather than an accurate statement. Maybe she's a manifestation of parts of his consciousness,...so she'd be limited by his senses. He's a very, very smart man, and I'm sure he could probably be calculating all kinds of things in the background, and then Phantom Six is the outlet by which he reveals to himself something that he's just figured out.

My *only* reservation is when she showed up on the bridge in Season One, so that everyone could see her. It's the only part that doesn't make any sense to me if she's a hallucination.

It doesn't have to be the same Sixes. The real question obvious is the coincidence that Baltars Phantom Six disappears and a "real" (as in alive and in flesh) Six appears on the ship. It is possible, though, that Baltar "adjusted" his memories, making him believe he hadn't seen his Phantom Six during Shelley's Presence. But I must admit that is some kind of a stretch since it breaks usual storytelling "rules" (but on the other hand - a really delusional character would probably "do" that...)

The inconsistency that I don't understand is the number of people who have seen him talking to himself, behaving oddly etc. who don't seem to relay that information on. You'd think the reputation of "brilliant scientist" in the eyes of the public would be offset by rumours about him grabbing himself by the lapels, and throwing himself against a wall, or arguing with thin air.

I think these things don't happen too often - as far as we know, we see all important Baltar/Six "conflicts", so that would make only a very few incidents where his behaviour would be strange, and many of them were not among the same people (many were even when he was alone). And his reputation for "brilliant scientist" might facilate acceptance of strange behaviour.