PHB II: Duskblade too powerful?

[Fishbone]

A competent Gish build can hang with a duskblade every day of the week, in my opinion. They're on the upper end of strong but they're far from being gamewreckers or "broken". Arguably 3 core classes are just as strong, if not stronger. There is plenty to not like. Limited Armor, limited casting, bad spell list, minor MAD issues, low dice for a frontliner, etc. If I had to compare it to anything it'd be the Mystic Theurge. It looks like a total beast on paper but in practice its surprisingly balanced, maybe even on the weak side.

 

[ForceUser]

I was trying to find a polite way of saying, "That's a pointless observation, why are you bothering to share it with us." Next time I'll be more direct.

But why would you say that? Why make a rude comment at all? If my post held no value to you, the correct response would have been to ignore it, not to make a snarky cutdown. That just makes you look like a jerk.

 

[Kurotowa]

But why would you say that? Why make a rude comment at all? If my post held no value to you, the correct response would have been to ignore it, not to make a snarky cutdown. That just makes you look like a jerk.

*sigh* Alright, the LONG version, since you're not understanding me at all.

This thread is a discussion of how balanced the Duskblade is. You offered the anecdote of seeing two different fights where the Duskblade involved dominated. To me, this seems like a useless observation. A full BAB armored caster can be expected to dominate a single fight, their weakness is fewer spells than a full caster and less AC and HP than a full warrior. The balance, if it exists, is over a multiple encounter day. It's like coming to a discussion about Warlock balance and offering, "Well the DM started us naked in the wilderness without weapons or spellbooks, and the Warlock dominated every fight."

I tried to point out that your observation didn't have much weight to it due to the circumstance, in what I thought was a fairly polite way. You came back with a fist full of snark. I will admit, I got a bit offended by that, and threw snark back. Now you're acting hurt. And here we are.

 

[ForceUser]

Now you're acting hurt. And here we are.

I'm not acting hurt. I'm telling you you're being a jerk. Totally different. Again, you don't like it, ignore it and move on. Not hard to understand. Here, I'll show you.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Ignoring the snark battle waging in the background.... (Yet still commenting on its presence. )

If I had to compare it to anything it'd be the Mystic Theurge. It looks like a total beast on paper but in practice its surprisingly balanced, maybe even on the weak side.

I think that this is a wonderful observation. My first thought when I looked at the Duskblade was "Dang, I goota get me one of those!" And no, I didn't really say that ... but it was the intent of my thought!

Yet, as I began to play I realized that the class is similar to the Warlock in play. It doesn't multiclass too well - although it multiclasses better than the Warlock does. There aren't a bunch of PrCs that a player with a Duskblade is going to want to trade for losing what it gets in the class. As mentioned, certain builds suffer from MADD. As Rystil has pointed out in another thread, unless you like elves (or like to change the flavor text as I did) the flavor text is really annoying in game terms of inserting it into the world.

The Duskblade is good at what it does. But overpowered, I don't think so as of yet. I've seen one go to the upper end of its build yet, but even then I would expect it to shine in the areas that it was designed to shine in. But I'd expect that from any class, really.

STORYHOUR SPOILER - READERS OF BITTERNESS OVERCOME BEWARE:
Oh - and for those of you that would like to see how I changed the flavor text of the Duskblade so that it isn't "elf-centric," feel free to go over to my Story Hour: Bitterness Overcome. If you read through it, you should be able to understand where I am going with the class. Hint: Look specifically at Ischarus.

 

[pawsplay]

Duskblades have overlapping abilities that deal damage, and hence, in raw output, can sometimes perform fairly well. However, they have neither a full caster's versatility nor a staight up fighter's or barbarian's shock and awe abilities. They are B-grade casters and B-grade fighters, but work out to a solid A in their special niche. Like many generalists, they stomp all over niche protection, but who cares?

The most important comparisons, I think, would be to Spellswords, or Bladesigners and EKs with weapons of spell storing and Arcane Strike.

 

[Eytan Bernstein]

Having played a duskblade...

No. Not too powerful at all.

The duskblade shines very brightly, and--despite his apparently large numbers of spells--burns out very quickly. In a campaign with fewer-than-average fights, the duskblade might come across as a little bit overpowered, but not much.

In a "standard" campaign? No. Not overpowered at all.

My experience is exactly the same as Ari's. You blow through your spells incredibly fast, especially when you begin to get swift spells and quick cast. You should be casting two spells each round by high levels, so you will actually burn through all of those spells. Fortunately, you aren't terrible without them, so you can still be decent when you run out.

The class seems to really shine between 3rd-4th, possibly 5th. In 3rd & 4th, you can do melee and a spell, dealing more damage than anyone else can (without mega-optimization cheese) at the same level. By the time casters have fireballs, flamestrikes, and fighters/barbarians have tons of attacks, you're not as overshadowing.

On Friday, my Sun Elf Duskblade began the session at 3rd level. While he could use shocking grasp on his longsword 6 rounds in a row, he rapidly runs out of spells. Fortunately, my DM ruled the chill touch (and other spells that allow multiple attacks) can be used each round through the blade. It only says that the spell discharges with the 13th level ability, not the 1/round ability. My character has the Spell Rehearsal feat which makes both of those spells awesome. Keep increasing the DC on the strength loss by one each round, +2 bonus to hit and spell penetration. We ruled that the shocking grasp bonus to hit against lots-o-metal opponents applies through the sword. Combine that with spell rehearsal and both of those spells are great for a duskblade.

 

[Felon]

But why would you say that? Why make a rude comment at all? If my post held no value to you, the correct response would have been to ignore it, not to make a snarky cutdown. That just makes you look like a jerk.

This is quite defensive. Your initial post was vague, and his reply was pretty clearly an implicit (and fairly innocuous) request for more data. Your own follow-ups are a mixture of sarcasm, coyness, and outright hostility rather than any attempt to address any points about the duskblade. Relatively speaking, Kurotawa's posts have been a model of civility.

As to the duskblade, I have to guess that the big question revolves around the arcane channelling ability, as none of the other class features are particularly flexible or potent. Alowing a touch spell to be layered on top of a melee attack. It is quite interesting to me to see how weapons have evolved from being deadly in their own right to being mere delivery system for other far greater means of damage, such as Power Attack, sneak attack, weapon properties such as holy & flaming, and now arcane channelling. Many in my groups speak highly of a duskblade wielding a whip; virtually no damage from the whip ever, but the 15 foot melee range makes it all worth while. I expect one day to see a halfling rogue walking around with a sewing needle, slaying all in his path with a deadly prick.

Note, however, that arcane channelling is a standard action, so the duskblade misses out on iterative attacks. This ability and the majority of the duskblade's spell list essentially make the class highly effective against single targets, which is something fighters and barbs have long excelled at anyway.

As to duskblades outstripping a wizard of equal level--well, everyone outstrips a wizard at low levels as they have an unacceptably small number of spells per day and without a decent caster level none of them do a lot of damage compared to a plain ol' greatsword. Post-fireball levels though, I would really have to hear some compelling evidence as to how a class with mostly single-target damage effects can match a wizard's artillery or save-or-you're-outta-here spells.

 

[Felon]

The most important comparisons, I think, would be to Spellswords, or Bladesigners and EKs with weapons of spell storing and Arcane Strike.

I think we can take EK's out of the running. If the guys who designed the class thought that good BAB and an "upgrade" to d6 hit dice is sufficient to make for an effective warrior-mage, or that it's worth giving up a level or two of caster progression, then they were really kidding themselves. Jump to d8 hit dice and we can talk.

Spellswords always were questionable as well. I think at some point the designers realized that reducing ASF percentages didn't do the trick. Thus was born the armored mage ability. Not that they have an ability very much like arcane channelling, but it's restricted to a handful of uses per day. OTOH, a spellsword gets to toss fireballs...

But forget what they actually do. The real detriment to those PrC's and many other warrior-mage PrC's (like Enlightened Fist) are the prerequisite of 3rd-level arcane casting ability. It's excessive. Five or six levels is just too much time to spend in a class that suffers limitations that the player was trying to avoid in the first place. The proper design would have been to emphasize an entry based on martial requirements like BAB rather than spellcasting ability.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

I hve not yet played a duskblade thoroughly or had one played in my game so I am going by mostly readingthe class.

Up to level 5, it is an amazing class. Spell plus weapon hit, good BAB, some nice abilities, and the quick cast. It is pretty front loaded, and it ability to cast *any* ouch spell with its attacks just cries out for a prestige calss with good arcane advancement.

Up to level 13, I consider it a strong class. It has the full attack-touch spell thing and a couple of quick casts plus a bit of spell power (which really doesn't mean much) It is still good, and a strong contender.

But after 13th levl it gets very litle. A few quick casts and then a bit of spell power. And not much else. By 14th, I would be looking for a new home.