PHB II: Duskblade too powerful?

[Mort]

Where is wraithstrike?

Wraithstrike is in Complete Arcane. It's a 2nd level swift spell that allows attacks for the round to be treated as touch attacks.

For a straight caster the spell is kinda neat but not very effective - they don't have a very high BAB, probably don't have power attack (and if they do: why?) and really don't want to put themselves in situations where this spell is useful.

For the fighter mage this spell is of rapidly escalating value. at low level it's useless (the bab just isn't there, really it can be used to help the poor fighter-mage actually hit something), but at 9th level+ it rapidly becomes very deadly as touch AC's remain low for almost all creatures well into high CR's.

 

[Fishbone]

Ding ding ding we have a winner! Wraithstrike past 9 quickly becomes ridonkulous for gishes and things like Battle Sorcerers. Lets say the BBEG is a Horned Devil.
You tell me what AC your 14-16 level gish would rather be attacking, 35 or 16. For a second level spell you get a to-hit bonus equivalent to True Strike that stacks with everything for all of your attacks and the time blown on it in combat doesn't exist unless you have other swift spells or actions to take. Or you can just two-handed power attack the guy into a grease spot for 20 to 30 extra damage a hit and still be getting an effective increase in your to-hit percentage.

 

[Endur]

Duskblades are broken and a power-gamer's dream for a fighter-wizard.

A first level Duskblade has full BAB, good will and fort saves, martial weapon profiency, heavy armor and shield profiency, can cast more spells than a 1st level wizard, has a better skill list than a fighter, and receives numerous special abilities that are better than any feats that are available. They only have a d8 for hit points instead of the fighter's d10, but that is their only drawback.

In non-combat situations, their spell-list is not relevant, but likewise, fighters are not relevant in non-combat situations, so this is not really a limitation compared to fighters.

 

[Aaron L]

Duskblades are broken and a power-gamer's dream for a fighter-wizard.

A first level Duskblade has full BAB, good will and fort saves, martial weapon profiency, heavy armor and shield profiency, can cast more spells than a 1st level wizard, has a better skill list than a fighter, and receives numerous special abilities that are better than any feats that are available. They only have a d8 for hit points instead of the fighter's d10, but that is their only drawback.

In non-combat situations, their spell-list is not relevant, but likewise, fighters are not relevant in non-combat situations, so this is not really a limitation compared to fighters.

AH, I can easily see you've never experienced a Duskblade in actual play. The straight classed Fighter blows me out of the water in damage output, every battle. The only thing I have over him is the debuffs I can do; Ray of Enfeeblement, and Touch of Idiocy saved our beehinds last game. Other than that, I'm a pretty elf in shiny mithral armor while the Fighter is like a minor combat god.

The spell list of the Duskblade is frustratingly small and norrow, and their spells known is pitifully small, even compared to a Sorcerer. They recieve none of the bonus feats of a Fighter, severely limiting their options for combat maneuvers. Their skill list? Well, I guess if you consider Sense Motive, Decipher Script, and the Knowledge skills that overpowering then they have much better skill list, sure.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Its more powerful, but not waaaay more powerful just from the numbers I think.
I've never seen one in play so I won't vote.

 

[Mort]

Duskblades are broken and a power-gamer's dream for a fighter-wizard.

A first level Duskblade has full BAB, good will and fort saves, martial weapon profiency, heavy armor and shield profiency, can cast more spells than a 1st level wizard, has a better skill list than a fighter, and receives numerous special abilities that are better than any feats that are available. They only have a d8 for hit points instead of the fighter's d10, but that is their only drawback.

In non-combat situations, their spell-list is not relevant, but likewise, fighters are not relevant in non-combat situations, so this is not really a limitation compared to fighters.

This is the kind of unfortunate analysis that led to months of posts claiming that the monk was the most broken class ever introduced - it superficially looks at the paper attributes of the class without putting anything in context.

Where to start?
1st level duskblades only get light armor - the best they ever get is medium - yes you can take the battle caster feat to upgrade that to heavy, but this class is so feat starved that that's the least of your concerns.
While duskblades start with 1 more 1st level spell than wizards, this is highly misleading. First, a specialist 1st level wizard gets the same number of spells as a duskblade and second the duskblade gets a whoping 2 spells (chosen from a very short list) at first level. Also duskblade spells are generally of the instant variety - they have few spells that last more than one round.
Duskblades have a better skill list than fighters BUT they have mandatory skills fighters don't need, namely concentration (a must for casting in combat) and spellcraft (not mandatory but usefull if they want to be semi competant at identifying spellcasting in the field) - they only have 2 skill points per level to fill these skills.
As for "numerous special abilities that are better than any feats that are available" - Hardly, they get combat casting (available as a feat), they can cast some 0 level spells extra times per day (complete arcane has feats that let any character do this, though duskblades can do it more often, but remember 0 level spells), and they get arcane chanelling the signature duskblade ability - this ability allows you to channel touch spells through your weapon (it's nifty, but with the duskblades spell list hardly broken).

And that's just responding the points in the above post - if you do a comparison with the duskblade against a core fighter/mage (fighter/mage/eldritch knight) - you'll note the duskblade is better until 8th level or so, then it's about even (with each having different strengths). If you throw in splatbooks and have the fighter mage be a fighter/knight phantom/abjurant champion - the duskblade gets left in the dust after 8th level or so.

Duskblades are decent fighter/wizards, with good flavor but their not even close to overpowered

 

[rgard]

No because I would honestly like to see a fighter/mage hybrid that can cast higher than 5th level spells. I mean if they stopped at 8th, fine. But only 5th? No way.

Somebody may have mentioned this (haven't and probably won't read all the posts) in this thread, but take a look at the Armored Mage out of the PHB2. You could build to 6th level fighter/14th level wizard which would give you:

7th level spell
+13 highest AB
cast in light armor without a problem.

If you take Battlecaster twice, you could be casting in full plate without arcane spell failure.

at 22nd (7 fighter/15 wizard) level you would have:

8th level spell
+14 highest AB
and the same armor.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Klaus]

Battle Caster can't be taken more than once.

 

[Glyfair]

Duskblades have a better skill list than fighters BUT they have mandatory skills fighters don't need, namely concentration (a must for casting in combat) and spellcraft (not mandatory but usefull if they want to be semi competant at identifying spellcasting in the field) - they only have 2 skill points per level to fill these skills.

Well, INT is their spellcasting stat, so a Duskblade will have a few skill points to play with each level. Probably lose as much as they gain here.

 

[Mort]

Well, INT is their spellcasting stat, so a Duskblade will have a few skill points to play with each level. Probably lose as much as they gain here.

True INT is their casting stat - and that's actually another problem - they need a decent INT as well as STR, DEX and CON - unless you get really lucky or have a high point buy Multiple attribute dependancy is a real problem (unlike a wizard who can maximise INT and get by just fine or a fighter that can skimp on DEX and just get heavier armor). You'll note that a duskblade's spell list is very light on defense, they won't be able to compensate with spells like shield or even false life.