Piratecat ruined my D&D game
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
el-remmen
Moderator Emeritus
One of the ways I have dealt with the problems of a rotating cast due to PC death, is to have the first part of the campaign be a prelude.
I did this to good effect in my "Out of the Frying Pan" campaign. The first 11 or so session were a bunch of unrelated sidetreks that were loosely connected to arriving at their eventual destination which is where the campaign "really began" (when the PCs were about 3rd level).
This way when folks died at those vulnerable levels and new characters were introduced, they were still around early enough to be involved in the unfolding backstory, and now when things "really begin" everyone is a a little tougher. Also we got a new player during this time, and while his character was not there from Session #1, it was easy to forget that wasn't the case, as he joined up right at the end of the prelude.
Also, you have to work at keeping characters involved, both old and new ones. In my "The Oath" campaign, one character was not around for the beginning of the game when the PCs discovered they were being used as pawns by some evil wizard - but he saw enough of the bad stuff he pulled to hate him - later when the PC was separated from the rest of the party by an ocean, and he needed someone to teleport him to his companions and save them from some danger - guess who helped him out? The manipulative evil wizard, of course. Now, he really hated him, but owed him. . .
You get the point.
I did this to good effect in my "Out of the Frying Pan" campaign. The first 11 or so session were a bunch of unrelated sidetreks that were loosely connected to arriving at their eventual destination which is where the campaign "really began" (when the PCs were about 3rd level).
This way when folks died at those vulnerable levels and new characters were introduced, they were still around early enough to be involved in the unfolding backstory, and now when things "really begin" everyone is a a little tougher. Also we got a new player during this time, and while his character was not there from Session #1, it was easy to forget that wasn't the case, as he joined up right at the end of the prelude.
Also, you have to work at keeping characters involved, both old and new ones. In my "The Oath" campaign, one character was not around for the beginning of the game when the PCs discovered they were being used as pawns by some evil wizard - but he saw enough of the bad stuff he pulled to hate him - later when the PC was separated from the rest of the party by an ocean, and he needed someone to teleport him to his companions and save them from some danger - guess who helped him out? The manipulative evil wizard, of course. Now, he really hated him, but owed him. . .
You get the point.
Ashy
First Post
I agree 150% with what Pkitty said above, but I have added a couple of things:
1. No XP AT ALL - all of my level advancement is now completelt dependant on the completion of story arcs; when the party completes a story arc, everyone levels. This works very well in the world of training as well.
2. Let the players help create the world - this keeps them involved and interested. Sorta like dropping a bajillion plot hooks and letting the players run wild, do the same with that blank section of map - I bet that you will be surprised at the result...
1. No XP AT ALL - all of my level advancement is now completelt dependant on the completion of story arcs; when the party completes a story arc, everyone levels. This works very well in the world of training as well.
2. Let the players help create the world - this keeps them involved and interested. Sorta like dropping a bajillion plot hooks and letting the players run wild, do the same with that blank section of map - I bet that you will be surprised at the result...
Quasqueton said:
Yes there are ways. No don't give up.
To some extent the way depends on players in my expereince. If they are of the loot the fallen comrade variety, it's near impossible. If they work as a team of high adventurers that aid each other then yes. In fact, if they work as team stories develop about how they saved each others bacon.
I agree with you, as both player and DM, I let the dice fall where they may, and roll in the open as often as I can. Death does occur, but if you allow acces to rasing magic it is not so bad. I'm of the camp that being raised should not come without a price, but it is an escalating price IMC. The first one or two, small xp or such loss. At some point the powers that be won't want to let you go back without some major promises on your and your friends part.
Part of it is also balancing encounters and providing a safety valve. I use something I call Luck Points but I think the same idea is called Action Points in other games. I use them as bascially a roll over/try again chance. PCs get them, fey get alot of them, and the BBEG (when I use them) might have some too. Hey that's how they can "get away" by using the same mechanic available to players.
Another "trick" is multiple PCs per player, typically 2. At low level, when it may be hard to recover or bring back a body for raising, it's not such a loss. But it builds great character stories about how the PC was slain but his best friend carried on to avenge him and achieve greatness. Odds are at least one character will survive over most of the adventures.
Another "trick" is I don't have instant death unless your crushed, head cut off, disintegrated etc. If your friends are close they get 1 chance to bring you back by pouring potiions down your throat etc. You only get 1 round to do this in so no half measures, i.e., pour in 1 and see if it works. This can make for some tense and thrilling moments.
For example, in one session the mage (level 1-2 IIRC) took 4 crossbow bolts to the chest, a fairly lucky shot. I actually misread the dice and said 3, but the player actually corrected me and said I think it's 4. Needless to say she was down. The cleric luckily was nearby, he dropped his weapon and "ran" 10 feet to her side. He got one healing potion out automatically and made a Dex check to get out a second, pulled the stoppers with his teeth and poured them both in. Although then past 1 round, she was up in the low negatives (still dieing but not quite dead) next he cast a heal to bring her to 1 HP. In the interim the fighters stepped into the crossbow weilding goblins LOS to block further fire on their friends. Next round she's up and getting off a spell. I think that counts as a character "death" but quick thinking (and using all their potions) and teamwork saved the character and the day.
Thus, Players can also contribute by how they play, at least from what I've seen. Players dividing magic by who is most effective with it versus whose turn it is to get a goody often do much better. They also seem to not hesitate to aid a fallen comrade or try to bring back their body. This can lead to PCs lasting and building interwoven stories of the characters as they each help and get involved in the lives of their comrades.
Mighty Veil
First Post
> but the new PCs don’t really have any in-game connection to it as their predecessors had.
Write a plot that the main bad guy is sponsored by some evil god or demon. So the good gods have chosen a handful of "eternal champions". When dead, their spirits go to new champions, who gain the memory of the previous ones. If your PCs die as much as you say, that could mean a PC might find himself with the memory of 3 or 4 past champions.
And don't re-start at 1st. Everyone done 1st level enough. They know what 1st-3rd is like. Each re-start, start 2 or 3 levels back. They die at 6th, start at 3rd or 4th.
Could also change your rules of dying too. Try "negative levels". Each time you die, you get one negative level. One neg. level comes off with each class level gained. The penalties for each neg. level is - 5 hp, -1 caster lvl and DC, -1 to all D20 rolls. No levels lost.
Or give an XP penalty. Instead of losing a level and start midway in the previous one. Figure out what 50% of the current level to the next one is. Add that number to what they normally need.
Or, much like negative levels, give them a LA penalty. Maybe they have to buy off the LA. Just use the LA rules for LA races, like drow.
Write a plot that the main bad guy is sponsored by some evil god or demon. So the good gods have chosen a handful of "eternal champions". When dead, their spirits go to new champions, who gain the memory of the previous ones. If your PCs die as much as you say, that could mean a PC might find himself with the memory of 3 or 4 past champions.
And don't re-start at 1st. Everyone done 1st level enough. They know what 1st-3rd is like. Each re-start, start 2 or 3 levels back. They die at 6th, start at 3rd or 4th.
Could also change your rules of dying too. Try "negative levels". Each time you die, you get one negative level. One neg. level comes off with each class level gained. The penalties for each neg. level is - 5 hp, -1 caster lvl and DC, -1 to all D20 rolls. No levels lost.
Or give an XP penalty. Instead of losing a level and start midway in the previous one. Figure out what 50% of the current level to the next one is. Add that number to what they normally need.
Or, much like negative levels, give them a LA penalty. Maybe they have to buy off the LA. Just use the LA rules for LA races, like drow.
Last edited:
hagor
First Post
Great thread! Lots of good advice and inspiration!
I have noticed similar: I had a major villain, who the PCs desperately wanted to kill. I just had to mention his name and the PCs dropped everything and followed the lead. However, when they finally met him, only 1 PC of the active party knew him (1 of the other PCs died, 1 PC was retired due to the player dropping out, and 1 PC was not with the party at that time). (for those interested: instead of the big fight the PCs expected, they found him weak and chained up in some dungeon, pleading for his life in exchange for info on some major plot twist: the campaign ended there...)
I agree completely. IMC, we play about once every two months: some of the players (and recently I as a dm) have kids, and there are many other real life obligations.
So, continuity is more related to the player's memory than PC deaths. This was very clear in the modified "Assassins knot"-adventure I ran recently. I liked the "open" format of the adventure (with a lot of freedom to the PCs actions, and then coming up with suitable repercussions by the major NPCs). However, I quickly found out that player memory often failed, which is bad when you try solving a mistery, in so far that the PCs sometimes didn't know what to do.
My solutions:
- I made an adventure log (I started this already before this adventure) and sent it to the players some days before the game. They love it!
- I made handouts (and even hung them on the wall) with major discoveries, major npcs, etc.
- I upped the pace, and let the npcs (both allies and ennemies) took the initiative: this way, the players had a more clear (short term) goal.
In all, I think it went fairly well.
About PC deaths: they are very rare. I don't care much about EL, and player tactics are rather good, so combats are usually not that deadly. PCs tend to kill themselves: the last PC death was when the mage instead of leaving the building, like the other PCs were doing, entered another room and had to face some assassins. His body was later "used" in some modified "animate dead" spell and possessed by an evil spirit...
Hagor
I have noticed similar: I had a major villain, who the PCs desperately wanted to kill. I just had to mention his name and the PCs dropped everything and followed the lead. However, when they finally met him, only 1 PC of the active party knew him (1 of the other PCs died, 1 PC was retired due to the player dropping out, and 1 PC was not with the party at that time). (for those interested: instead of the big fight the PCs expected, they found him weak and chained up in some dungeon, pleading for his life in exchange for info on some major plot twist: the campaign ended there...)
MerricB said:
I agree completely. IMC, we play about once every two months: some of the players (and recently I as a dm) have kids, and there are many other real life obligations.
So, continuity is more related to the player's memory than PC deaths. This was very clear in the modified "Assassins knot"-adventure I ran recently. I liked the "open" format of the adventure (with a lot of freedom to the PCs actions, and then coming up with suitable repercussions by the major NPCs). However, I quickly found out that player memory often failed, which is bad when you try solving a mistery, in so far that the PCs sometimes didn't know what to do.
My solutions:
- I made an adventure log (I started this already before this adventure) and sent it to the players some days before the game. They love it!
- I made handouts (and even hung them on the wall) with major discoveries, major npcs, etc.
- I upped the pace, and let the npcs (both allies and ennemies) took the initiative: this way, the players had a more clear (short term) goal.
In all, I think it went fairly well.
About PC deaths: they are very rare. I don't care much about EL, and player tactics are rather good, so combats are usually not that deadly. PCs tend to kill themselves: the last PC death was when the mage instead of leaving the building, like the other PCs were doing, entered another room and had to face some assassins. His body was later "used" in some modified "animate dead" spell and possessed by an evil spirit...
Hagor
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Heck naw. You've just gotta be comfortable with "letting the dice fall where they may" yeilding non-fatal results most of the time.
I mean, in FFZ, the relevant rule is called "swooning." When you reach -10+ hp, you don't die. Instead, you're KO'd. Unless the whole party is wiped out, you can be revived at the nearest temple of the gods of life (for a nominal fee). If the whole party is wiped out, or if your corpse is destroyed, things get even less realistic, but you can effectively re-start at that nearest temple of the gods of life (for a bigger fee).
This doesn't mean characters can't fail and that death can't happen (especially when thematically appropriate) and that there aren't consequences for the actions they take. It just means that you have to expect them to come back from those setbacks as stronger, better-equipped, better-prepared characters, rather than as new characters. Deaths aren't final, they're learning lessons, and perhaps a hint that a new approach is needed.
I, and most of the videogame world, agree with you, which is why permenant character death doesn't exist much outside of the PnP world. Even if FFZ's method doesn't agree with you, something like WoW's respawning/area graveyards, or XP deficits, or something along those lines, might.
It does require a pretty significant change, from all I've seen, to how the characters (and the world) think of life and death. It's not the same as it is IRL: you can and will come back most of the time, unless something happens to your soul in transit (something like necromancy).
It requires some re-jiggering of the rules and some re-thinking of "what happens when you die," but it's entirely possible to have horrible, permenant consequences to your actions without having to bite the dust and make a brand new character, or having the DM fudge it. You just have to get a new way of dying.
I am a big fan of both letting the dice fall where they may and of keeping PC's alive *in*the*rules*. Which is why a change to the rules is kind of nessecary. Not a fudge, you're not cheating for the players, but a true rules change that makes death as a consequence less final.
Yeah, death, less final? I never said it was *realistic*, just that it facilitates the kind of character-focused campaign I like while allowing me to still adhere to the (new) rules of the game.
So, recommendations:
#1: Make clerics ready and willing to res a staple in the campaign.
#2: When a PC dies, some gold and some XP penalties are their main price to pay, not their entire character sheet
#3: To keep fatality something feared, make sure that horrible things can happen to even the rich and powerful's souls (necromancy comes to mind at first). Even if you can afford GP and XP debt, at a high-level, rich character (or NPC), the world has mechanics to make it more permenant than it usually is.
Kristivas
First Post
Character death wasn't really a problem for my former groups until 3.0/3.5 when a goblin weilding a rapier could mean a quick end with the right rolls. A friend was DMing, and he'd been playing an online game, and got an idea to help resolve this...
Our second level party was sent on a mission by the Paladin's Church (Tyr, in FR). We recovered a large crystal from a cave (the remains of an elemental earth demigod) and brought it back. An in-game month or so, we were called back to the church and told that, since we recovered the crystal, each member of our group would be entitled two uses of it for free. What the crystal did was restore the dead to life by channeling the power of Tyr. (after two times, the crystal couldn't restore a particular soul back to it's body without 'dire consequences')
We're all thinking MAJOR cheese here ("Yay, a rezz stone."). The DM is intending for this stone to pretty much just help us get through the lower levels til one of our group can raise the dead. Still, a strange thing happened. None of us really wanted to use up our free rezzes. This odd idea came over the group. We intended to save our free rezzes until we were high level (at which point a negative level or whatever would be of a more profound effect - the stone restored you 100% without any drawbacks). Then and there, we decided we would all try harder to see that NO character in the group died.
Healing potions and wands were bought and distributed as needed. Careful tactics were used when before, we just charged willy-nilly. By level 8, none of our group had died. It turned out to be a great game where we really used some awesome teamwork to keep our free rezzes.
The DMs original intention had been to have the crystal destroyed or stolen by the time we got to level 7 or so, but after all that hard work he didn't have the heart to cheat us. To this day I can't figure out why such a cheesy idea just worked so well and made that such a great game.
Our second level party was sent on a mission by the Paladin's Church (Tyr, in FR). We recovered a large crystal from a cave (the remains of an elemental earth demigod) and brought it back. An in-game month or so, we were called back to the church and told that, since we recovered the crystal, each member of our group would be entitled two uses of it for free. What the crystal did was restore the dead to life by channeling the power of Tyr. (after two times, the crystal couldn't restore a particular soul back to it's body without 'dire consequences')
We're all thinking MAJOR cheese here ("Yay, a rezz stone."). The DM is intending for this stone to pretty much just help us get through the lower levels til one of our group can raise the dead. Still, a strange thing happened. None of us really wanted to use up our free rezzes. This odd idea came over the group. We intended to save our free rezzes until we were high level (at which point a negative level or whatever would be of a more profound effect - the stone restored you 100% without any drawbacks). Then and there, we decided we would all try harder to see that NO character in the group died.
Healing potions and wands were bought and distributed as needed. Careful tactics were used when before, we just charged willy-nilly. By level 8, none of our group had died. It turned out to be a great game where we really used some awesome teamwork to keep our free rezzes.
The DMs original intention had been to have the crystal destroyed or stolen by the time we got to level 7 or so, but after all that hard work he didn't have the heart to cheat us. To this day I can't figure out why such a cheesy idea just worked so well and made that such a great game.
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