Pirating RPGs. (And were not talking "arggg" pirate stuff here.)

[PJ-Mason]

Then I'm going to complain about the high prices of porches. Its entirely unfair that I cannot afford one.

Well, if you have porch sellers in your area who live off of you're business, it'll help. If you have porch sellers in your area who don't give a damn about you or you're business, it won't help.

 

[jgsugden]

This is really not worth discussing: The e-thefts are a fact of modern living. There are only three possibilities left:

#1: Accept it and wait for it to kill the industry, leaving it entirely up to hobbyists to support the game,

#2: Fold in physical aspects into the design of the game, so that you can not play it (using the rules) if you have physical objects that are only available with the purchase of physical books (- you can't steal DDM figures online for use on your kitchen table -),

#3: Foster an environment where people face more risk than reward for e-thefts. For instance, if we implemented a USA federal system where you could turn in someone that was E-stealing copyrighted product off the internet and get a confidential reward, we might be able to nip this in the bud. Imagine what would happen if there was a minimum $3,000.00 fine for being caught comitting an e-theft (up to $25,000 for multiple offenses) (plus 1 week minimum community service), with 25% of the collected fine being given to the person turning in the thief. Heck, if that were available, I can imagine a nice niche cottage industry for being a narc ...

Now ... who was it that was advocating this type of theft?

Of course, this would never fly in real life, but it is pretty much the only way to give people an incentive not to steal these materials if morality is not enough.

 

[dagger]

People are going to do what they do. The warez community is not going anywhere, whether it is movies, games, or even books (and that is the tip of the ice berg). They have been doing it for a long time.

Just about any product you can find on this site, and I guarantee every rpg ever produced by ANY company is available. Many (most) of them are also available as OCR, so the community who does these things is very organized.

I like having a copy on my computer and a hardcopy, it is very convenient. Especially software that will take a scan (jpeg or whatever) and do OCR on it; then convert it to PDF.

I do like Hardcopies better than a pdf any day of the week though. It would be cool if a free OCR pdf came with every hardcopy purchase.

 

[PJ-Mason]

#3: Foster an environment where people face more risk than reward for e-thefts. For instance, if we implemented a USA federal system where you could turn in someone that was E-stealing copyrighted product off the internet and get a confidential reward, we might be able to nip this in the bud. Imagine what would happen if there was a minimum $3,000.00 fine for being caught comitting an e-theft (up to $25,000 for multiple offenses) (plus 1 week minimum community service), with 25% of the collected fine being given to the person turning in the thief. Heck, if that were available, I can imagine a nice niche cottage industry for being a narc ...

Now ... who was it that was advocating this type of theft?

Of course, this would never fly in real life, but it is pretty much the only way to give people an incentive not to steal these materials if morality is not enough.

Or try that Ransom Model that i have heard about from 3 different sources today. Strange i hadn't heard about it before. A great idea!

http://www.gregstolze.com/ransom.html

 

[Turjan]

I'm not sure what these extremist answers from one side or the other are going to achieve. This topic is not the question of one and only one truth.

Yes, distributing copyrighted materials on p2p networks is a criminal act, how ever you call it. And no, actual laws don't differ fundamentally between most countries; the differences are minor in this case (fair use rules, etc.).

No, copy protection methods don't prevent copyrighted material from appearing on p2p networks. Copy protection methods only hit people who don't use p2p networks, but would give a free copy to a friend. This friend might actually be a potential buyer, as he is most probably interested in the product, whereas most p2p users are not.

No, there is no fundamental difference between watermarking and DRM as far as security is concerned. Both formats just need different tools for removal.

Yes, most people downloading free material don't actually use it. That's why pirated copies don't translate to lost sales.

Yes, price matters. Price doesn't matter whether a product appears on a p2p network - all products appear on p2p networks, and if your product does not appear on p2p networks, you should consider writing something more interesting. But price matters for the number or your sales. Real fans earning some good wages will always buy a product. Lower prices are more suited to attract new customers. Your pricing scheme depends a bit on how large you estimate the potential for new customers as part of your total sales.

Arcana Evolved sells for $16.80. You have to decide whether you consider AE as a competitor or not when you set your prices .

 

[philreed]

Just about any product you can find on this site, and I guarantee every rpg ever produced by ANY company is available. Many (most) of them are also available as OCR, so the community who does these things is very organized.

Maybe so. But I hope the people reading this are decent enough people not to participate in downloading and exchanging illegal PDFs. I pay my bills through PDF sales and every copy downloaded is potentially lost revenue.

I hope I can trust all of you to respect me, my work, and the other people who work in the game industry enough not to download or distribute illegal PDFs.

 

[Psionicist]

Copyright infringement people. Not theft, they are not thieves, they don't steal. If you download something from the internet, you do not steal it, and therefor you are not a thief. There are separate laws for copyright infringment and shoplifting for example. That's why it's refered to as copyright infringement. I know, you are trying to get support from those who don't understand the matter at hand by using loaded words, but in reality the only thing that happens is you annoy those who are interested in intellectual property and copyright law, the people who can actually help you.

For example, according to DOWLING v. UNITED STATES, 473 U.S. 207 (1985), the judge explicitly said you shouldn't refer to copyright infringement as theft. I quote:

interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion, or fraud. The infringer of a copyright does not assume physical control over the copyright nor wholly deprive its owner of its use. Infringement implicates a more complex set of property interests than does run-of-the-mill theft, conversion, or fraud. Pp. 214-218.

That's a precedent people. You can legally call copyright infringment whatever you want, but if you do it in court prepare to be corrected. And if you decide to argue about having the law on your side etc, use the correct term, because the laws regarding theft of physical property will surely not help you.

That said, it's wrong. Copyright infringment is as wrong as theft, but they are not the same thing. Thanks.

 

[Psion]

I think one thing needs to be clear here:

Not liking the inconvenience of DRM in exchange for whatever minimal gains in stemming distribution is not tantamount to advocating or endorsing e-piracy. I feel that authors provide me a great service and deserve to be compensated for their efforts. But I also feel that if I am going to fork over real money for bits, those bits should not lose their value after the 6 inevitable hard drive crashes/windows upgrades/reinstalls and the whim of one grumpy customer service rep (or hostile takeover) at Adobe.

 

[HellHound]

Agreed with Psion.

And thanks for the precedent, psionicist.

And I have to agree that DRM only makes it more likely that a product will appear in the pirate environment as compared to Watermarking.

That said, there are automated DRM -and- watermarking removal tools now.

 

[Turjan]

Not liking the inconvenience of DRM in exchange for whatever minimal gains in stemming distribution is not tantamount to advocating or endorsing e-piracy.

Good point. I've never ever bought a pdf with DRM protection and I never will. I don't mind watermarking though, as you don't see it on printouts and don't have that silly online hassle.