Pirating RPGs. (And were not talking "arggg" pirate stuff here.)
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Psionicist
Explorer
I don't know how DriveThrus watermarking works, but an idea is to use lots of different methods, such as randomly inserting a random letter in a random word on a random page. There will always be small typos in books, and it's much harder to remove than the "sigil" kind of watermark.
Edit: You can also embed XML documents in PDF's if I recall correctly, so you can mark the PDF there too. Open a very small PDF in Notepad and check for text that looks like english. If it doesn't look like gibberish, you can modify it, and therefor you can mark it in a non-obvious way. This is actually easier than chaing the text itself, but it's also easier to "circumvent" (just by resaving the document will probably get rid of it).
Edit: You can also embed XML documents in PDF's if I recall correctly, so you can mark the PDF there too. Open a very small PDF in Notepad and check for text that looks like english. If it doesn't look like gibberish, you can modify it, and therefor you can mark it in a non-obvious way. This is actually easier than chaing the text itself, but it's also easier to "circumvent" (just by resaving the document will probably get rid of it).
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Agamon
Adventurer
Turjan said:
Funny, I just printed out a watermarked pdf from DriveThru and my name is at the bottom of each page.
I agree about the DRM. I don't buy anything that doesn't allow me to use it as I wish. Such restrictions only hamper the law abiders, and are only a minor annoyance to the pirates.
wingsandsword
Legend
Not every illegal download is a "lost sale", sometimes they are customers you haven't gotten to yet, or you've failed to service already who tried to buy from you.
A friend of mine downloaded a pirated .pdf of Iron Heroes a week and a half ago on p2p. He was quite enthused about the book and kept up with all the previews, and downloaded it as something to hold him over until he could get a legitimate hardcopy. The moment it came in at our FLGS he happily bought a copy and is already planning two campaigns for it. At another game, I met somebody who actually legitimately downloaded a watermarked copy of IH and printed it out, and he couldn't bring himself to buy a printed hardcopy since it was so expensive, he'd already lost money on buying the .pdf and printing it compared to just getting a book.
As a fan of the d20 Star Wars RPG, I often see or talk to players who want to get into the game, but are hindered by how it's out-of-print and poorly supported. It makes me quite glad I managed to get everything produced for the game while it was in production. The SWRPG books are on p2p, and I know people who have downloaded them, but only after trying their FLGS (sold out), trying to special order them through their FLGS (sold out at the distributor level), trying to buy it on eBay (some sourcebooks sometimes going for over $100), and looking around at used bookstores/flea markets/wherever, and once they've exhausted every legal option they turn to piracy. Frankly, I can't blame them, they haven't deprived WotC or LFL of a dime since they have tried multiple times to get the material through legitimate channels, and been stymied. If WotC would put the SWRPG back in print, piracy of it would probably drop.
Also, a lot of downloads on p2p are downloads of convenienence, not "lost sales". It's one thing to be willing to spend $40 or $50 on a new gaming book, it's another thing to idly scan a p2p network, download a book and look at it. We don't know what happened after those 136 downloads. How many thought it wasn't what they were looking for and deleted it immediately? How many took a quick look and filed it away, probably never to view it again? How many actually poured over it and intend to buy it when it comes out in hardcopy, and feel more confident that it will be a good purchase, and might have even been on the fence beforehand? How many people don't have a FLGS to browse in, so they download an illicit .pdf to preview before ordering it from Amazon or other hardcopy souce? How few of those actual downloaders actually said "I was going to buy it, but now I don't have to!" and are planning on running Army of Darkness games using their illicit file?
Many of the games I've seen on p2p are long out of print, things for long discontinued systems, sometimes for defunct companies, but the sort of things that some gamers could appreciate.
A friend of mine downloaded a pirated .pdf of Iron Heroes a week and a half ago on p2p. He was quite enthused about the book and kept up with all the previews, and downloaded it as something to hold him over until he could get a legitimate hardcopy. The moment it came in at our FLGS he happily bought a copy and is already planning two campaigns for it. At another game, I met somebody who actually legitimately downloaded a watermarked copy of IH and printed it out, and he couldn't bring himself to buy a printed hardcopy since it was so expensive, he'd already lost money on buying the .pdf and printing it compared to just getting a book.
As a fan of the d20 Star Wars RPG, I often see or talk to players who want to get into the game, but are hindered by how it's out-of-print and poorly supported. It makes me quite glad I managed to get everything produced for the game while it was in production. The SWRPG books are on p2p, and I know people who have downloaded them, but only after trying their FLGS (sold out), trying to special order them through their FLGS (sold out at the distributor level), trying to buy it on eBay (some sourcebooks sometimes going for over $100), and looking around at used bookstores/flea markets/wherever, and once they've exhausted every legal option they turn to piracy. Frankly, I can't blame them, they haven't deprived WotC or LFL of a dime since they have tried multiple times to get the material through legitimate channels, and been stymied. If WotC would put the SWRPG back in print, piracy of it would probably drop.
Also, a lot of downloads on p2p are downloads of convenienence, not "lost sales". It's one thing to be willing to spend $40 or $50 on a new gaming book, it's another thing to idly scan a p2p network, download a book and look at it. We don't know what happened after those 136 downloads. How many thought it wasn't what they were looking for and deleted it immediately? How many took a quick look and filed it away, probably never to view it again? How many actually poured over it and intend to buy it when it comes out in hardcopy, and feel more confident that it will be a good purchase, and might have even been on the fence beforehand? How many people don't have a FLGS to browse in, so they download an illicit .pdf to preview before ordering it from Amazon or other hardcopy souce? How few of those actual downloaders actually said "I was going to buy it, but now I don't have to!" and are planning on running Army of Darkness games using their illicit file?
Many of the games I've seen on p2p are long out of print, things for long discontinued systems, sometimes for defunct companies, but the sort of things that some gamers could appreciate.
Turjan
Explorer
It probably depends on the printer and, maybe, also on the product. I just tried yesterday with a few pages from AE, and there the watermark is not visible on printouts from my laser printer.Agamon said:
Edit: I find it funny that just this moment my browser complains about the wrong security certificate of the drivethrurpg ad on this page
.
Steel_Wind
Legend
Well - I'll leave the issue of piracy another day. It is true that the vast majority or pirates would never have bought it.
But vast majority does not equal all. And the fact that somebody else got it for free tends to diminish the value of the product in the eyes of the legitimate purchaser. It's a difficult issue and I understand the outrage of the publisher, I really do.
I will say this though: I am not sure where and what the proper price point for a product is. But I am certain it is not $28.00 for a .pdf.
Sounds like 125 people disagree with me. I expect you would have had a hard time finding that many more disagreeing with me it if had never seen a P2P network.
Easy to say of course. I guess now we will never know.
But vast majority does not equal all. And the fact that somebody else got it for free tends to diminish the value of the product in the eyes of the legitimate purchaser. It's a difficult issue and I understand the outrage of the publisher, I really do.
I will say this though: I am not sure where and what the proper price point for a product is. But I am certain it is not $28.00 for a .pdf.
Sounds like 125 people disagree with me. I expect you would have had a hard time finding that many more disagreeing with me it if had never seen a P2P network.
Easy to say of course. I guess now we will never know.
Rodrigo Istalindir
Explorer
Turjan said:Edit: I find it funny that just this moment my browser complains about the wrong security certificate of the drivethrurpg ad on this page
Yeah, that's driving me nuts.
Turjan
Explorer
I don't think that everyone disagrees. People who say something along the lines that the proper price for a product is what a producer asks for his product, and everybody who thinks it's too expensive just sees that he is not able to afford it, forget some fundamental market laws. The proper price is not that one that the producer deems the right one, but the proper price is that one that consumers are willing to pay. Whether it's worth for the producer to make the product for that price (or the opposite: whether consumers are willing to pay much more than the production costs) is a completely different question.Steel_Wind said:
francisca
I got dice older than you.
I'd like to echo Psion as well.
I work at a University that does a lot of research in digital copyright protection. When DTRPG opened, I spent a fair amount of time discussing the technolgy with professor, phd students, and industry professionals. My conclusion: DRM is no real deterent. Period. It only serves as a barrier to full enjoyment to those who paid for it.
Watermarking is better. The tecnique used by DTRPG isn't much stronger than DRM, but at least it isn't a pain in rear to the consumer. Since dropping DRM on many of it's products, I've put my money where my mouth is and shelled out over $100 for products.
Now, the next step in this game of leapfrog is to embed a non-visible watermark, on random pages, with random orientation of the page, in addition to the visible name/order number. This makes it much harder to remove. It is also a more expensive technology, and would add to the price of the books. And of course, it would be a temporary solution.
Having said that, I am big supporter of digital watermarking these documents. Why?
1) they don't infringe on my usage.
2) They will help a publisher should they take someone to court. By making at least a token effort to secure their IP, they've shown a willingness to go to the expense and effort to protect their work, and it is easier to demonstrate malicious intent on part of the person who removed the watermark vs. a simple unmarked pdf.
Of course, the big joke is on the losers who spend all the time and money to download gigs and gigs of this illegal stuff. They spend all their time online, sucking down files, sorting them, and never reading or playing any of it. In addition, they have to keep shelling out more money for bigger hard drives, DVD-RW disks to burn it to back up, etc... So go ahead guys, queue it up and download it all. I'll be reading and using the material I paid for.
EDIT: Irony of Ironys: when I posted this, I got a certificate error from DTRPG. Their host didn't match the cert. Nice.
I work at a University that does a lot of research in digital copyright protection. When DTRPG opened, I spent a fair amount of time discussing the technolgy with professor, phd students, and industry professionals. My conclusion: DRM is no real deterent. Period. It only serves as a barrier to full enjoyment to those who paid for it.
Watermarking is better. The tecnique used by DTRPG isn't much stronger than DRM, but at least it isn't a pain in rear to the consumer. Since dropping DRM on many of it's products, I've put my money where my mouth is and shelled out over $100 for products.
Now, the next step in this game of leapfrog is to embed a non-visible watermark, on random pages, with random orientation of the page, in addition to the visible name/order number. This makes it much harder to remove. It is also a more expensive technology, and would add to the price of the books. And of course, it would be a temporary solution.
Having said that, I am big supporter of digital watermarking these documents. Why?
1) they don't infringe on my usage.
2) They will help a publisher should they take someone to court. By making at least a token effort to secure their IP, they've shown a willingness to go to the expense and effort to protect their work, and it is easier to demonstrate malicious intent on part of the person who removed the watermark vs. a simple unmarked pdf.
Of course, the big joke is on the losers who spend all the time and money to download gigs and gigs of this illegal stuff. They spend all their time online, sucking down files, sorting them, and never reading or playing any of it. In addition, they have to keep shelling out more money for bigger hard drives, DVD-RW disks to burn it to back up, etc... So go ahead guys, queue it up and download it all. I'll be reading and using the material I paid for.
EDIT: Irony of Ironys: when I posted this, I got a certificate error from DTRPG. Their host didn't match the cert. Nice.
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