Planescape, 4e, and the problem of worlds without history

[underthumb]

4e's new cosmology has reduced the great wheel to a simplified core and removed many of the particular rules associated with planar travel.* The stated reason for many of these changes was to increase the accessibility of the planes to PCs and remove outerplanar realms that were rarely visited.

This bothers me on many levels, and not just because I think there should be one great wheel to rule them all. Mainly, it means that many of the ideas associated with the planes as I understood them will not be carried forward into future generations of D&D players. That is, they no longer form a set of core assumptions that can serve as the basis of conversations and shared adventures.

Okay, so that's sad, at least to me. But what about the larger issue? I feel as though the designers of 2e's Planescape (in particular Wolfgang Baur, Monte Cook, and Colin McComb) succeeding in creating an amazing fantasy realm that simply has no modern equal. In its totality, Planescape was beautiful, dangerous and absurd. The complex histories and ecologies of outerplanar beings served as the backdrop for some of D&D's most impressive features, such as the Blood War. (The fiends, in fact, were easily the most fleshed-out creatures in Planescape.)

Is there really a good reason for all of this amazing material to be either redacted or cut completely? Was trashing most of the multiverse (as it was constituted) worth it to "maximize playability"? Maybe I've become a grognard in that I don't think significant chunks of lore should be dropped because they are measurably less convenient during play, especially when they form the backdrop of established creature ecologies (see, for example, baatezu and tanar'ri tactics described in Hellbound: The Blood War).

As a side note, why the hell is the succubus suddenly a baatezu?

Anyhow, to side step an anticipated reply, yes, I understand that rule 0 exists, and that my game can be anything I want it to be. Still, I will no longer be able to purchase new gaming materials about the multiverse I had come to understand. A multiverse that I would argue is more colorful and more interesting than the one presently established.


(*Some changes to the outer planes and outer planar creatures also occurred with 3e, though they were less dramatic and more easily ignored.)

 

[Wik]

Anyhow, to side step an anticipated reply, yes, I understand that rule 0 exists, and that my game can be anything I want it to be. Still, I will no longer be able to purchase new gaming materials about the multiverse I had come to understand. A multiverse that I would argue is more colorful and more interesting than the one presently established

Not to be harsh... but I haven't been able to buy any new DARK SUN stuff for years. And if and when a new DS campaign setting comes out, it's not going to "be the same". I mean, things change.

 

[malraux]

Tradition for the sake of tradition is kinda pointless.

 

[FourthBear]

I disagree that the 4e cosmology is simplified relative to the Great Wheel cosmology. It is much less stratified, predefined and ordered, but every one of the planes of the Great Wheel can be placed easily in the Astral Sea, Elemental Chaos, Shadowfell, Feywild or World. In fact, since there's no exhaustive detailing of the realms or assignment of the various planes to alignments, you can include many planes (such as those found in Beyond Countless Doors supplement) more easily than you could in the Great Wheel. If any DM enjoys the structure of the Great Wheel, the entire kit and kaboodle can placed right in the Astral Sea, complete with all of the connections between the various planes.

I feel the Great Wheel was a well detailed *example* of a cosmology, but I don't think it makes for a good default. I think the 4e presentation of cosmology lends itself much better to homebrewing, particularly for the starting DM who simply wants to add a few planes/domains here and there without having to worry about where they fit into some kind quasi-scholarly structure of alignment, elements and energies.

 

[underthumb]

Tradition for the sake of tradition is kinda pointless.

As is change for the sake of change. My argument is that much of that tradition became both color and background, and thus was something other than the route application of past ideas.

 

[underthumb]

I disagree that the 4e cosmology is simplified relative to the Great Wheel cosmology. It is much less stratified, predefined and ordered, but every one of the planes of the Great Wheel can be placed easily in the Astral Sea, Elemental Chaos, Shadowfell, Feywild or World.

I see your point here and I agree--you can recreate the great wheel if you want to, and I effectively acknowledged this is my post. "Easy", however, is not a descriptor I would apply to the process. The fundamental ideas associated with the great wheel cosmology are not simply the existence of its planar realms, but which creatures come from which realms, how the astral and the ethereal are associated with spell casting, death and petitioners, alignment, etc.

Anyhow, it's not my intent to argue that it's simply too hard to change things back, but rather that they didn't need to be altered in the first place.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

God, i love Planescape. It is all the things i want out of a planar campaign: strange, creepy, non-standard, creative.
And complex. Lots of work. Special - so special that from 10 people i showed the setting, 8 went "what", 1 said "interesting", and 1 said "is the pizza already there yet?"
Honestly: Planescape should be a special campaign addendum, not a core component that holds the multiverse together. Its simply TOO MUCH for most D&D campaigns.

And honestly, i love it that different editions use different approaches regarding to the planes. I can pick and choose this way.

 

[nightwyrm]

The great wheel cosmology is reliant on the two axis alignment system. It makes the implicit assumption that alignment is a real cosmic force in the multiverse and takes a hand in shaping the planes. The nature and position of the each of the planes on the wheel are all informed by its alignment. Mount Celestia is the way it is because it's LG, the Abyss is the way it is because it's CE, etc.

When the alignment system is changed in 4e, it makes no sense to keep the great wheel. There is no longer a reason for making Baator be next to Gehenna, and for Gehenna to border Hades, etc.

The removal of mechanics related to alignment also means that the planes can no longer be defined solely by their alignment.

 

[thundershot]

*shrug* I like the new cosmology MUCH better than the old one. I might actually USE the outer planes now.



Chris

 

[malraux]

God, i love Planescape. It is all the things i want out of a planar campaign: strange, creepy, non-standard, creative.
And complex. Lots of work. Special - so special that from 10 people i showed the setting, 8 went "what", 1 said "interesting", and 1 said "is the pizza already there yet?"
Honestly: Planescape should be a special campaign addendum, not a core component that holds the multiverse together. Its simply TOO MUCH for most D&D campaigns.

Pretty much this. If you love PS, and can find a group that also loves it, or a DM that can convey lots of background without being boring, then its a good campaign setting. But those are necessary conditions.

The 4e planar setting works reasonably as both background and foreground. In depth, in brief, or anywhere in between. That added flexibility makes for a better general campaign setting.