Planescape, 4e, and the problem of worlds without history

[kenmarable]

The mere existence of Shemeska the Marauder gives the lie to your claims, glass and Third Wizard.

I know what you mean - that guy is a jerk! Not to mention I'm surprised he wasn't permanently banned years ago. He's so indoctrinated by this Great Wheel garbage I doubt he could even consider someone using another cosmology.

(Hey, Todd/Shemeska - thanks for the sig quote! I'm honored!)

Maybe I've just been blind, but I recall many threads of "I want to run some planar adventures, what do I need?" being answered with essential pdfs to buy and Great Wheel explanations. But I'd be surprised to see someone talking about their homebrew cosmology being told it is wrongbadfun and that they must buy those pdfs and use the Great Wheel or else they are doing it wrong. But I did leave EN World for a few months when the edition wars made the signal to noise ratio not worth it, so maybe they all happened during that time?

You haven't been reading ENWorld regularly for very long, then. Well before 4E was announced, many times someone would write about their campaign that involved the planes, the Planescape militia here would crop up to explain what five PDFs they needed to buy immediately to get it right and how their stated campaign planes did not properly mesh with lore.

For all the moaning about how the Forgotten Realms felt constraining by the end of 3E, it was Planescape fans that were most dogmatic about the proper way to run the setting.

The message from Planescape fans was pretty clear: Get it right, or stay on the Prime.

Normally, if someone is going to call an entire group of fans intolerant, I'd demand some links. But whatever. This thread is taking a nose dive fast if we are dropping into arguing over which group of fans are cool and which are jerks. I bet you could pick any random topic and I can google up some rude fans of it.

And underthumb, I feel your pain, but I've found it healthiest to let it go and move on. When 4e first came out I typed many a rant at the changes I disagreed with (might have even posted one or two, but I tried not to). But 4e is what it is, and most importantly your game can be whatever the Lawful Evil Baatezu-laden Nine Hells (right next door to Acheron and Gehenna and across the Wheel from decidedly non-boring Arborea*) you want it to be! You want to support the Great Wheel or any cosmology that you feel is more complex/richer/whatever - then post story hours and fan material. It's one thing to say what you think WotC did wrong, and another to do your part to support what you think needs supporting!
(Sorry, trying not to put on the motivational speaker hat. Not to delve into politics, but I did watch some oath being taken by someone or other today and then blasted Beethoven's 9th - "Ode to Joy", so I'm in that kinda mood. I beg your pardons.)

* That reminds me - someone (Gary Ray?) had a whole site dedicated to their Arborea campaign at Tales of the Bariaur. I'll have to dig around at archive.org and see if it still exists somewhere. That had some fascinating ideas. Update: Found it!

 

[underthumb]

There have been many considered and interesting comments that I have not replied to: Kamikaze Midget, kenmarable, Taureth, and others.

I must admit that it's a bit disheartening that nearly everyone seems to be less enthusiastic about the wholesale resurrection of Planescape and its associated cosmology, but I suppose that is the way of things.

And I do continue to GM in Planescape, though I do so with GURPS rules these days. (This does not mean, however, that I would not purchase 4e books that were about Planescape as I knew it). Also, I would post story hours, but my time for sharing the details of my campaign necessarily cuts in to my time for creating them.

 

[ThirdWizard]

The mere existence of Shemeska the Marauder gives the lie to your claims, glass and Third Wizard.

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you point out any examples of someone wanting to change the Planescape canon in their game and being shouted down? I've posted to that effect and have never had that experience. For example, once I made a post about how I made the efreet Chaotic Evil and tied them to the Wind Dukes' war of Law vs. Chaos (which IMC is the origin of the Blood War), and if I'm not going to get shouted at for that, I don't know what I'll get shouted at for!

 

[avin]

Yeah... moving from AD&D to 3E was smoother and edition war was on a better tone (I rage wars against Thaco hehe)... now, even DMing 4E and enjoying it a lot I am surprised seeing that some older stuff is considered *wrong* instead of *different*...

I don't think Elemental Chaos is wrong, I just dislike the way thing at 4E are made to everywhere be a playable place (the *dungeon* hyperbole)... now, if you play / DM 4E and doesn't think it's "dungeon everywhere", well, we are having a different experience while reading.

No problem at all.

 

[ThirdWizard]

I must admit that it's a bit disheartening that nearly everyone seems to be less enthusiastic about the wholesale resurrection of Planescape and its associated cosmology, but I suppose that is the way of things.

A Planescape campaign setting would be great! A watered down Planescape consisting of only the bare trappings and Great Wheel cosmology with a focus on the Prime Material Plane as the focal point of the game? Not so much. You wouldn't be getting Planescape. And, really, without the Planescape setting, what is the Great Wheel cosmology? Not much, by my reckoning. But, perhaps others disagree.

 

[malraux]

There have been many considered and interesting comments that I have not replied to: Kamikaze Midget, kenmarable, Taureth, and others.

I must admit that it's a bit disheartening that nearly everyone seems to be less enthusiastic about the wholesale resurrection of Planescape and its associated cosmology, but I suppose that is the way of things.

Is it in need of resurrection? I can buy all the published books on it in a matter of minutes of any of the PDF sites. There's a health online fan community. I can't think of any major difficulties that would result from saying that in your campaign the default cosmology is the great wheel. In what way is PS in need of a resurrection?

 

[kenmarable]

There have been many considered and interesting comments that I have not replied to: Kamikaze Midget, kenmarable, Taureth, and others.

I must admit that it's a bit disheartening that nearly everyone seems to be less enthusiastic about the wholesale resurrection of Planescape and its associated cosmology, but I suppose that is the way of things.

And I do continue to GM in Planescape, though I do so with GURPS rules these days. (This does not mean, however, that I would not purchase 4e books that were about Planescape as I knew it). Also, I would post story hours, but my time for sharing the details of my campaign necessarily cuts in to my time for creating them.

That's understandable. I'm just getting my 4e Planescape campaign rolling now. I'm hoping to post module conversions as I do them (I'm going to be largely just running the old 2e Planescape modules starting with part 1 of Great Modron March and then Eternal Boundary), but if push comes to shove, you bet I'll focus on my group before posts.

I am definitely enthusiastic about Planescape and its cosmology, but I also know it ain't coming from WotC any time soon. Although with it typically being right up with Dark Sun as one of the top campaign settings fans want to have brought back (according to many an EN World poll for whatever value you put in those), I wouldn't be shocked if it did come back officially sometime during 4e considering their "one campaign setting a year" model. I'm not expecting it to, but I wouldn't be shocked. And all things considered, I think I would prefer Planescape as a full blown campaign setting than as the background in the Manual of Planes.

If I had to wager on what the campaign settings would be from WotC, I'd say the two years after Eberron would be Dark Sun and a new setting (not sure which order) with the new setting probably being from the two finalists in the setting search that gave us Eberron (remember WotC did buy the rights to all 3 but never revealed anything about the other two). Dark Sun has always ranked very high on popularity polls, around that time they should be covering psionics in the PHB 3 (or 4), and that setting really feels like a great fit with 4e.

Then my magic 8 crystal ball gets fuzzy, but I'd probably put Ravenloft higher on WotC's re-do list than Planescape since it seems more workable in the 3 book model. And I would think WotC would mix in another brand new campaign setting or two in there if for no other business reason than to build more IP.

But considering how tieflings are a core race in the PHB, aasimar (sorry, devas) will be a core race in PHB 2, the emphasis that genasi have been getting, and having a Manual of the Planes out within the first few months of the new edition, it appears the planes are getting more loving from 4e than they did from 3.x even if it is less Planescape-canonical. So you never know.

If they did a 4e Planescape, and they did a good job with it, I would certainly buy it. (I can accept sensible changes to the setting if they make it better - heck I created a Modron civil war in Dragon mag.) If they published a 4e Planescape that disregarded too much and changed too much for the worse (in my opinion since there's no way to quantify that), yeah I'd probably let loose a rant or three. But as for the 4e Manual of the Planes and current cosmology, I'll just shrug, not bother buying it, and use my 2e books for my campaign.

 

[kenmarable]

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you point out any examples of someone wanting to change the Planescape canon in their game and being shouted down? I've posted to that effect and have never had that experience. For example, once I made a post about how I made the efreet Chaotic Evil and tied them to the Wind Dukes' war of Law vs. Chaos (which IMC is the origin of the Blood War), and if I'm not going to get shouted at for that, I don't know what I'll get shouted at for!

WHAT?!!

That is SO wrong, I don't even know where to begin. The genies are totally Inner Planar critters, and the law vs. chaos battle is completely an Outer Planar issue. EVERYONE knows that the Outer Planes are created out of belief matter, and the Inner Planes are from physical matter. Law vs. Chaos has no bearing on the building blocks of physical reality. If you want to know the real origin of the Blood War, you better buy this PDF, read it, and then write "Never trust a yugoloth, but at least the fiends can't teleport without error, right?" 100 times on the chalkboard.

Go!

(Seriously however, that is a good idea you have there. I always meant to read up more on the ancient Wind Dukes. I'm looking for ways to incorporate more Inner planar adventures into my campaign since there weren't many modules produced for them.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I like the idea of ships that ply the Astral Sea and the Elemental Tempest, perhaps even a campaign setting built around that idea.

However, if they actually call it "planejamming," I too will be choking down bile.

Planejamming: The new "Gish."

Better might be riffing off "Kubla Khan," although Gygax got there first, and it's more Underdark than it is Astral Sea:

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree :
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
So twice five miles of fertile ground
With walls and towers were girdled round :
And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,
Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree ;
And here were forests ancient as the hills,
Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.

And riffing off "Sea of Stars" gets into Forgotten Realms territory.

Surely "Planesailing" isn't taken, though ...

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Is there really a good reason for all of this amazing material to be either redacted or cut completely? Was trashing most of the multiverse (as it was constituted) worth it to "maximize playability"? Maybe I've become a grognard in that I don't think significant chunks of lore should be dropped because they are measurably less convenient during play, especially when they form the backdrop of established creature ecologies (see, for example, baatezu and tanar'ri tactics described in Hellbound: The Blood War).

As a side note, why the hell is the succubus suddenly a baatezu?

The Manual of the planes does address some of these questions. They changed the motive for the Blood War, but it still exists. In 4th Edition, the Blood War was the result of the Devils trying to seize control of the Abyss, and continues because Asmodeus stole a part of the 'core' of the Abyss and made it the 'Ruby Rod'.

As for the broader question of why was so much cut, the simple answer is that much of the original description for the planes caused useless duplication or useless symmetry. Elemental planes could essentially not be traveled in unless you had pockets of survivable space. Some of the para and quasi elemental planes were useful, others were not.

As for why the Succubus is suddenly a baatezu, that was answered some time ago in the run up to 4th edition. Demons and Devils were too interchangeable for what they did. The off hand answer for which does what is now simpler. If you want a demonic chess master who has plans that take centuries to come about, who uses guile and corruption, you want a Devil. If you want a super natural force of destruction to appear and wreck up the place, sue a Demon.

The Succubus / Erinyes served the same role, so why waste the page space when one monster can fulfill the role just as well? The modeus operendi of both was to seduce and corrupt, so that made it a Devil. Succubus is the classic name for that kind of monster, so the Erinyes killed the Succubus, and took its stuff, and its name, leaving the demon version lying in a gutter bleeding to death.

END COMMUNICATION